Remove Comm's ability to give targets

EDIT: PLEASE READ

Before posting in this thread, remember that it is old and most of the posts refer to pre-2.2 Empires, when "drag attack" targetted buildings as well as people. So do not post: "but it doesn't target buildings, noob!" That is remarkably unhelpful discussion, noob.

That said, so far, I think this is the most reasonable solution:

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Original Post:

Like the title says, I think the game would be better for everyone if the comm didn't have to ability to clutter everyone's hud with red diamonds. Who decided it would be a cool idea to give the comm wall hack abilities? And to use the ability, all he'd have to do is drag select his units and drag select the enemy units, over and over and over and over again all game every game. What fun!

I'm sure everyone has lots of reasons for wanting to keep it in, namely that the targets help you kill the enemy better. But the enemy commander can do the same to you. In maps with no commander, combat and squad tactics work just fine and there are no targets.

 

Targets are a double edged sword. On the one hand it allows comms to keep their infantry alive. On the other hand it sucks as the other team if the comm doesn't give you targets.

The only alternative is to just keep your finger on the voice button and scream down the mic about enemy positions. It does help stop ninjas though.

 

I think I remember some talk about re working the target system to make it a little better visually.. I usually just cancel any orders I get some how thru the F menu.. But I don't see wall hacks as a bad thing in this game.. Unless you are hacker LOL

It needs a little work but its better then it use to be.. Targets would stay on people even after they died and each wall piece was able to be targeted.. So imagine how that would look.. haha :D

 

play the game more before u suggest something this huge.

I wouldn't mind a change to visuals, but commander targets will never just go away..

 

If the nature of comm targeting were to be changed somehow, my first impulse would be to link it with scouts somehow -- it's a logical connection to make. When you're talking about getting enemy positions and using this information for your advantage, scouts should really be involved somehow.

I'm not sure how, though... perhaps scout targeting with their binoculars could comm-target the enemy for their entire squad. Maybe targeting your binoculars in an area would mark everything there... although that could be real annoying, too...

I'm a bit tired now, so those might not be the best way to do it. But really, shouldn't the scout be involved in this somewhere? This is kinda supposed to be their big thing, but they're barely involved in it at all.

 

Elaboration

After I wrote this suggestion I immediately thought about its impact on the scout. I imagine that if the team could no longer rely on the commander's all seeing eye, the scout binocs would actually have a use.

If enemies that are spotted either by you, teammates, or a scout, appeared on the map and mini map as opposed to the hud, I think that would be a seamless way to stay informed of the enemy movements. That's how BF2 and NS do it, as far as I know.

 

Problem is that the commander can see all the units on the battlefield, it would be logical to give him some kind of targetting system to aid his function, it's either a targetting system that lives up to the commanders perception of the battlefield, or him having to communicate all of that information the blunt way; he can see them, he can follow all of them with his mouse, why should he not be able to use this in favor of his teamates, he could actually do it with just waypoints, or ground attacks, imagine how retarded it would be if a comm would be giving you waypoints every split second, not just to follow one, but multiple enemy targets, add up to that there is a 1 second interval between giving orders to counter spamming. (you can thank me for the interval, COMM RAVE FUK YEH)


DUDE, THE ENEMY IS HERE *MO-MO-MOMO-MOVE-MO-MO-M-M-M-MOVE TO THIS LOCATION.

Removing is not an option, restricting or giving it some kind of penalty/requirement could work, the best way would probably be to either tie it to a structure (radar) or unit (scout). But then it should be a very simple and effective way to do it, it shouldn't cause difficulties between commander and his units to a point he will just spam ground attacks or whatever, or have to explain every little movement the enemy makes over mic, A little wouldn't be a bad thing, but even now with multiple attack order a commander could find himself having to give additional info, like "the enemy is prone and looking your way, he's building a turret, it's a scout, etc"

 

To be honest I don't think it's really a problem.

In many team games basic communication between players is key, in no small part because the concepts of a game such as CS:S are really quite simple so there aren't to many extra skills (such as telling people what you see!) to master.

By contrast empires has a whole host of things you could be doing, and shooting the enemy is just one of them. In that context I think it's nice to have a system that provides what would be effectively perfect teamwork in a simpler game.

Removing it will leave people more focused on keeping an eye out for enemies and shooting stuff than the building/scouting/whatever that they do now.

 

Giving wallhacks to all of your team, ones which follow the enemy around and even stay on them after they die and respawn is an absolutely massive boost to your team. with them you can fire through smoke and foliage, see enemies hidden in craters and know exactly when they're going to pop up, and know exactly when to fire your rifle as them come around a corner. with this "feature", no longer is empires about "which team has better tactics and skill" but "which team has the commander that knows the trick".

It's not even about being the commander that follows the team and helps them on the ground wins, because setting up such wall hacks takes a quater of a second and doesn't require any dedication to the troops at all.

Let's not forget that aside from removing the tactics of the ground fighting, it also makes the engineer camra completely obsolete.


I don't see how anyone can justify the mass attack orders.

The individual orders do make sense in a small way, but could definately be replaced with something that doesn't follow the enemy every step that they take as an attack order does, and stay with them after they spawn. an alternative off the top of my head would be a "camra shot" in a reasonably large radius, which would reveal the enemies like a camra does, in that area, for a reasonable period of time, if your units are nearby.

not that this rant is going to change anything...

 

Duh, Duh

Yes, I did read your entire post Dizzy, so I don't think I'm blowing off your argument.

But your first sentence made me go "duh, duh." IT IS A PROBLEM THAT THE COMMANDER CAN SEE ALL THE UNITS ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Does anyone else think that's a bug? I'm I wrong here?

I'm sure I'm showing some bias here when I say: "Take a look at Natural Selection." The commander can certainly see the whole map, but he can't see any enemies that his marines on the ground can't already see.

So by removing the comm's god-like vision (which is really just a holdover from the spectator mode that they built the comm view from), you would also remove the expectation that he yell out the location of every unit to his team. He would have just as much info as them.

The comm could still give way points to his team about where he last spotted the enemy or where he wants his units to patrol, but that's a lot different than a direct target.

 

Most of what you say is completely untrue.

First of all, it's the commanders role to have an overview on the battlefield, second, there is actually a fog of war, that is based on radius, not on the unit's view range, this actually means that the commander can see a lot less than his units. Where a unit is able to see the other side of the map, aslong as there is nothing obstructing his view, the commander is only able to see a set radius around that unit. So that's untrue.

Second, in NS, the commander can actally see everything that is in it's unit's view, PLUS a radius, as you very well know, ns has indoor maps with lots of walls, the commander in NS is able to give single targets to his units, ones they cannot see, add up to it that the commander can HEAR the whole map, he can hear hive locations, where units are, where resource towers are, where gorges are building etc.

The god like feature you mention is completely untrue, it's not a leftover of spectator mode, there is an actual fog of war and the commander should be able to have a feature that allows him to target, as he can already give this information to his units.

 

I'm wrong you're right but targets still ain't alright

Yes you did catch my exaggeration. I was wrong in saying that the comm has a god-like view of everything. This is obvious in the fact that you can't see the enemy base at the start of the map.

So while the comm doesn't see everything, I still have a basic dislike of the target system. But as you bring up, it isn't as simple as limiting the comm's view further, as it already has a reasonable limitation. But the targets don't share this limitation, and they continue to dog the enemy no matter how far into the fog of war he goes.

If we take targets away outright, then we have the commander yelling out enemy unit locations all game, which would be even more unfun than having him selecting targets all game. This seems to be the main argument in favor of keeping targets in the game.

But is that true? Will people expect the commander to spot units for everyone? Couldn't the responsibility fall more onto soldiers at the front, scouts, and engineer radars?

Going back to NS, again Dizzy you're also right in that the commander does have some unbalanced spotting abilities (the sound thing being the biggest), but no one expects him to yell out the location of every enemy because of them. People have eyes. They have mouths. They can spot and communicate on their own.

And maybe it is actually more fun for the comm to say "OMG NOOBS KILL THE GREN IN OUR MAIN #@$%!" then it is to simply give people a target to him. God knows that's pretty much how comms do it now anyway.

 

Without having read the whole thread ( I need to finish a map pretty quickly, so no real time), I still wonder why the targets are still marked after they're dead.

Remove that thing, there's anyway no point in having an attack order on someones' who is half accros the map.

 

This idea sucks.

 

I say get rid of mass attack for these four reasons:

1) It gives free wallhacks to players.
2) It removes the purpose of the engineer camera and radar.
3) It forces commanders to give mass attack orders to infantry, otherwise they are considered bad commanders. Why should commanders be forced to spam attack orders when instead they could be issuing real orders.
4) They are not being used as intended. "Attack these targets" does not mean attack those targets, rather it means "Ok here's the position of every single enemy near you".

This, mass attack orders should be removed.

 

Well that's a fair conclusion, but you're outlining a few different problems of multi attack here, definitly not the same thing you said in your first post, yet I and others are aware of these issues and have been discussing these as well, but it doesn't mean multi attack should be removed all together, which your thread seems to be about. We can change the targets themselves, we can change the responsibility and required interaction with the units themselves, we can change the spamming etc.

I don't see how you took my replies as if it's only about bitching, even if you might be exagerating, the main argument in favor of having it in is not because of whatever you just said it was, it's because in theory, as a human (WARNING: NOT TO BE MISTAKEN WITH FICTIONAL INGAME CHARACTERS OR ROLES), you can already achieve this, the reason you want him to do it manually are not critical enough for it t be removed.

Also, fog of war does affect targets, just that when they return back into fog of war they are retargeted, but this could be changed as well.

 

Why Commander-given Mass Attack Orders need to be removed

The problem with mass attack orders is that it forces commanders to constantly spam targets, otherwise their troops will be at a disadvantage when fighting enemies. There is no gameplay benefit in constantly having to drag a box over enemy units every few moments. It detracts from gameplay because instead of generating effective strategies and communicating to your troops, it is much more effective to simply drag an attack box around enemies.

As a veteran commander, I can say that giving mass attack orders is a huge timesink for commanders. Good commanders should spend 25% to 50% of their time giving mass attack orders. If mass attack orders were removed, commanders could use this time to think of strategy or communicate with troops. Instead, however, they are currently forced to spend this "extra time" constantly giving out attack orders.

I believe Empires gameplay would be significantly improved by simply removing the commander's ability to give mass attack orders.

 

What Im I supposed to do without a mic?Watch my little soldier men get slaughtered like cattle,while I have to sit and stare knowing any instruction or information I give to them will be ignored or misunderstood,makeing the com a more frustrating,unfufilling job than it already is.What else im I supposed to do between research anyway?Twiddle my thumbs?

 

Go to ms paint if you like to drag boxes.

Now on topic, yeah mass attack should be removed. It is retarded. Giving wallhack to all troops as the main thing to do as commander is not okay. Attack one target and location should be left in game. The commander should have that time to think about real strategy, this should be combined with lots of other changes.

Like a dual order system, one mayor attack command that the commander gives and then local move commands that the squad leader issues, this would work sence we don't need to sacrifice attack order on wallhack mass attacks. And more commands should be added, like defend, fortify stronghold, mine. This in all would make Empires more strategic and epic, instead of "OMG I DONT WANT TACTICAL MOVE OR ATTACK COMMANDS COMM GIVE WALLHACK".

Infantry combat should be more fun sence they can't magically spot each other. Scouts, cameras and radars would in fact be useful. Tactics would work better.