[2.25] Rpg

I don't think that keeping your crosshairs pointed at something the size of a tank is a particularly interesting skill. Choosing the correct weapon or strategy for the job is a much more interesting skill, and IMHO adds much more long-term depth and skill to the game than just making it "steady hand = win", with no thinking involved.

Nobody is suggesting that homing would be the only option. The RPG would have two modes, and this would involve a trade-off -- you could use guided to aim a missile at a tank's weak side, or to fire quickly without a lock; you could use homing if you think the tank is likely to duck around a corner or something along those lines.

IMHO, that choice adds much more skill to the game than a "keep the crosshairs on the enemy" minigame.

Compare vs TF2, say -- which are considered to be the classes that benefit most from a highly-skilled player? The sniper isn't really considered a high-skill class. The most skill-intensive classes are ones like the Demoman, scout, or soldier -- classes with more options. Adding versatility to a class, instead of making it all dependent on having a steady hand, leads to a higher skill ceiling in the long run.

 

It seems like you guys are complaining that its too easy to use and that you want something even easier to use to be added.

 

Oh it works well at every range against tanks, play grenadier to know what I mean

Homing is boring, seriously I want to be involved when I do something.
Homing makes me not involved at all, its well fire and forget = BORING.

And you dont guide a rocket into the tank, you guess and predict
where the tank and the rocket will be to hit it. That involves alot skill.

 

The aiming part of using a mortar is easy.

The problem is that there are situations where the guided RPGs are mostly ineffective, and no amount of skill can help you. If a competent tank is using the corner of a tall map structure for cover, you can't kill them as a grenadier -- they will easily dart behind their cover and repair, while if you approach too close, they'll kill you. (Not that you're likely to get their in time with your far-lower speed.)

The grenadier as it is right now has a very low "skill ceiling." Mastering the RPG's capabilities to a basic competence level is fairly easy. After that... you quickly hit the ceiling. Your RPG is still easily negated by a tank's speed and ability to dash behind cover to repair, and there's very little even the most skilled of grenadiers can do about this most of the time.

Giving the gren more options for how their RPG can work would fix this.

 

Believe me the ceiling for the RPG is very high.
You dont aim at the tank when you shot the RPG.
You fire it so its starting position will cover all possible
manouever the tank can make. You then guide the rocket
so it will hit the tank where it is in the future.
That involves alot of skill. Guided doesnt work like
hitscan weapon and telling people that it works like that
only shows that you dont have alot of knowledge how to
use the rpg.

If the RPG would be homing its almost ZERO skill.
Oh and you cant hit a target around a corner with homing cause
the rocket would hit the corner. You can do that with guided.

Oh and please stop trying to make us believe the grenadier
has a "low skill ceiling". The grenadier has the highest skill ceiling of
all empires classes. You need alot of training and alot of skill to be
competitive as grenadier. Look how many players are really good as
grenadier and look how many people are good with the other classes.

Aiming the mortar is not easy, you say that here, but well I believe
that i would win any mortar duel with you and I say, aiming is not easy with the mortar.

I think its amusing that everyone in that thread that plays grenadier
doest want homing and everyone that does not play grenadier wants it.

 

Mayama, you're complicating things. All you do is point-click-guide. That's all there is. There is NOTHING MORE TO IT. The RPG is and will most likely always will be an, "Easy weapon."

There could always be crit spot, but..you know the discussion on that.

 

RPG is not easy, play as gren and count the weeks til you can hit with every rocket.
I tell you what are easy weapons in empires:
Every hitscan weapon that the whole game has.
Means all guns for infantry...

All those guys here that dont play gren suggest changes that actually
make the class boring to play. Theirs no challange involved. Boring.
Why not give a aimbot for all rifles, its the same, awesome why not make
it so that every time you hit mouse 1 one enemy automaticaly dies.

 

hes not complicating things.. Dude is saying the RPG sucks cause a tank can just hide behind a corner when you shoot at him.. Homing doesn't change that.

The only thing I like about homing is you wont get sniped while guiding them, but like its already been said if they are faster then you won't need to keep your head poked out for so long.

 

what about both? homing lock on loses its lock as soon as you go out of the enemy target triangle (something the size of an attack order)

see a tank, aim at it, it starts bleeping as with homing, on lock you fire, and keep your cursor inside the target cone around the vehicle, if you go out the target cone or release the mouse button the missile stops turning and flies straight at whatever direction it was going at that time

 

If you aim like that you won't hit the tank, what Mayama said is right. Anybody that knows how to use the RPG shoots it in front of the tanks path then guides it from there...finely altering its course

 

No, I'm saying that if you make it hard to guide you miss the point, because then only people who practise with it for ages can use it, making it a useless weapon for most players and as it's the only real anti tank weapon this isn't a good thing.

If you make it easy to guide then you're just going to stare at the tank until it hits, and there's no reason to force players to do that when you can make the missile home in by itself.

Jumping around like an idiot does not stop you getting cannon splash or being mowed down by vehicle MGs, you mayama have done little else but complain about how impossible it is to avoid being killed by vehicles so don't give me that crap.

An important weapon which is specifically designed to be difficult to use is a badly designed weapon, important weapons need to be easy to use so everyone can use them, otherwise an important role is going to be left out of the game, or individual good players will start deciding the game.

Dig your head out of your arse for a second and stop thinking just about what you want and try thinking about what will improve the game for the most people.

 

AKA your self?
Homing weapon would take absolutely no skill, how on earth could people find that fun or interesting?

 

The same way they find camping doorways with the HMG and the ARs in general entertaining, because it kills things, and it's less boring than standing and watching the rocket while taking no skill which is the other alternative you can have if you want to make the RPG an effective weapon.

You point and hold the button, except for the times when you tap the button, people die, you get points.

Mines take no skill but people laugh when they blow a tank to bits. Shooting a tank in the arse with a rocket launcher at point blank in battlefield takes no skill, just luck, but it's hella satisfying to see it blow up in one shot. Shooting mavericks at things in armed assault takes absolutely no skill whatsoever because you just hit tab then mouse1 but everybody wants to fly the cobra.

Smashing shit in saints row mayhem takes no skill because you get a rocket launcher and infinite ammo but it's fun, because you're smashing shit. Mowing down skulks with the HMG in natural selection, driving round in the rhino obliterating cop cars in GTA, launching nukes in supreme commander, arty strikes in company of heroes, using the mounted turrets in COD4.

Killing shit is fun, explosions are fun, make tanks go boom when they die and give the RPG lots of pyrotechnics when it shoots, that makes it fun.

 

Oh, sorry for thinking that you were saying its too easy to use.. I dunno where I got that idea.

 

Its painfully obvious chris has never played gren before

 

I'm assuming you're not completely brain dead and realise that in order to fix the RPG you need to make it easy to hit with.

As it stands most people can't hit jack with it, now as a moderately intelligent person you see this and know that in order to fix this it's going to need a guidance boost, because boosting the speed is only going to make guidance even harder, it will extend the dumbfire range of the RPG substantially which is why I suggest boosting the speed as well, but a limited range RPG is not going to get kills because tanks can simply run away from it.

So, you have boosted the speed and the guidance to make the RPG able to hit things, but now you have a problem, the guidance requires people to keep looking at the tank for a few seconds every time they want to shoot it at long range. Why is this a good thing? All it does is make them vulnerable and grenadiers are plenty vulnerable enough, so why have it? The logical fix is to make it so you don't need to look at the tank but you still have the guidance. i.e, make it homing.

So now you have a gun which can reliably hit enemies and doesn't require you to expose yourself for long and also doesn't involve boring staring contests every time you want to shoot it, you can aim, fire, and move within a second, possibly even doing things like locking the target and then firing it up in the air to go over cover in an arc, or sideways so that it arcs in on the side you've been hitting because the tank has turned round.

The game is much more fluid than if you have to manually guide it and players can feel like they have an interesting weapon, not just something that makes death rays, something a bit intelligent which they can use in novel ways.

I assumed you'd done all this working out in your head beforehand.

 

Here's a change that doesn't require new coding and isn't just a speed boost. So how do you know that's going to make it even harder to use?

I think your wanting to hit tanks that are miles away or something because any tank I'm going to shoot at will be hit in less than a few seconds with the current RPG not counting the speed upgrade...

Essentially your saying code in homing so you don't have to have your head poking out for a few seconds and were saying speed it up so you don't have to have your head poking out for a few seconds... And I already said we should at least try the changes already ready to be implemented instead of having kane waste time coding in something that might not be needed.

And keep the insults coming man.. They really make me feel good about myself.

 

I am having a problem reconciling certain comments in this thread with the apparent concern that few people are playing grenadier.

If you make the grenadier weapons hard to use then few people will use them because they are just not very effective. Both the mortar and the RPG suffer from a considerable amount of difficulty involved in using them and considering that there are often alternatives to both it should come as no surprise that people will use those alternatives instead of the grenadier.

A homing RPG will fit situations where a guided RPG will not and vice-versa, by making both weapons as easy to use and keeping them as powerful as each other you can make the grenadier more popular and more powerful.

The skill in empires should mostly come from working in a team well rather than being able to multiple tanks by yourself. A focus on individual over team working skill encourages lonewolfing and is an impediment to newer players.

 

I for myself are not interested in playing something that involves no skill like homing.
Theirs no chalange why should I do it? Let a bot do it if you want to remove skill.
Why not implement aimbots for all rifles? Its the same.

 

Homing involves considerable skill. You have to be able to plan ahead and position yourself so you have time to get a lock, and you'd have to intelligently choose between guided, homing, and dumbfire missiles -- a skilled grenadier would have to be good at using all three, and at picking the right one for the current situation.

I do switch to grenadier when I need to harass tanks at long range, but -- let's be honest here -- grenadiers are currently not that great at their main job.

It's not surprising that people who play grenadier a lot don't want to see major changes; they've invested a lot of time into mastering it as it is now. People who don't play grenadier a huge amount are, generally, the people who don't enjoy or who aren't interested in the way it is now.

But our long-term concern should be in balancing the classes and improving the overall game, not keeping people who have wasted hours and hours forcing the grenadier's square peg into a round hole happy. The grenadier should be a class that everyone can enjoy playing, not just a few people -- so I think it would benefit from having both guided and homing as options, assuming they're adequately balanced against each other.

I mean, look, let's be honest. How many people do you see on the forum who are outspoken "rifleman players", who talk about how you can't comment on rifleman issues if you're not a "rifleman player?" How many people are "engineer players" like that?

Nobody. People play engineer or rifleman to serve a role on their team and accomplish specific tasks. People only play grenadier, though, because they like the mortar and RPG. That's why there's such an outcry whenever any meaningful change is suggested for either -- there have been extremely radical changes suggested for the engineer or rifleman with little protest, but suggest anything for the gren and the forum explodes.

I think that that's a problem. I know that you enjoy the grenadier (and I'm not suggesting removing the things you enjoy), but it has to be a class for other people, too; it can have the idiosyncrasies you enjoy, but it also has to be a pick-up-and-play class that people can use to serve a specific role without having to be in love with its weapons, just like they do with the rifleman and engineer.