Script changes for 2.8.1

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Sgt.Security, Mar 26, 2016.

  1. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    I know you probably would say : How's this gonna do anything?

    First, if you noticed, now MG/CN/ML are all being used frequently, only individual weapons that are obviously inferior aren't being used frequently.
    I can still remember the time when I'd rather load a .50 cal on my heavy tank than HEMG/DUMG, we are not going back.
    Second, DUMG is also being buffed(or, fixed), other MGs are popping up as well(For Bio/Plasma MG I am not sure, but really, they can't get worse).
    The problems with our current Plasma MG
    1: Too heavy (70 weight lol)
    2: You overheat yourself equally fast(probably even faster), killing the purpose of this weapon entirely.

    But Plasma MG actually delivers considerable heat to your enemy and this is very annoying.
    I am dropping both heat to target and heat generation.

    The problem with bio MG is that the cycle time is much faster than the bio damage interval.
    Every subsequent shot resets the bio DoT.
    These changes will guarantee at least 2 ticks of bio DoT for every shot.

    Because DUMG has falloff and its damage is being truncated for some reason (4.9--->4), our current DUMG deals 3 damage at all time, this explains why it's so weak.

    0.04 spread is the same as chain gun, it's too high for DUMG.
    Fun fact : If you manage to land all shots on one side, a full clip of DUHMG will take down a heavy tank,, but with DUHMG you can only load 2/2/2/1 15 weight armor on your APC, that's glass cannon for you.

    Comment : This probably won't be enough, but .50 cal comes with DUMG and I don't plan to create a new OP weapon, so we'll see how it goes.

    Our current Absorbant only gives you useless extra weight, it's not even much cheaper than other superior armors.
    Especially now we have anti-vehicle MGs rolling around everywhere, 60 flat HP is just worthless.

    I am making Absorbant an actually cheap armor, a medium tank will only cost you around 500.
    6hp buff and 15% damage reduction against vehicle MGs, so vehicle MGs won't just pierce right through it.
    Also, Absorbant shouldn't take absolutely zero damage from bio DOT, I feel that's kind of broken.
    But 1 bio damage modifier is kind of cruel, so I'll start with 0.3.

    Comment : You should only research Absorbant if you don't have ticket pressure, because Absorbant will still be noticably weaker than other armors, that means you'd lose more tanks.

    Composite is popular because it's easier to use, even though Deflective is still pretty competitive.

    This change is to drop deflective's difficulty to use.
    Cost increased so that cheaper armors can stand out a little bit, chassis cost is decreased to compensate this.

    Same as above, for cheaper armor to stand out.

    60 flat HP is just waaaaaaay too low. You get melted before regeneration actually does anything.

    If regeneration stops working when there's no armor(like old time), this buff is definitely not enough, but now regen works all the time, so we'll see how it goes.

    Reactive is just plain armor with 120 hp, 20 weight is too heavy.
    But flat HP is pretty useful against vehicle MG/bio, so I think it should still be heavier than other armors.

    Capacitive Strikes Back.

    I am removing that annoying negative regen because it makes non-engi driver a pretty retarded option.
    Highest flat HP, but takes roughly 30% more damage from shells, 20% more damage from missiles, 6% damage -> heat gen
    Of course, 18 weight, if I give it 15 weight this will be the only armor you ever research.

    Comment : Probably the best option against vehicle MG.

    Currently, Railgun has 5 more DPS than ranged cannon.
    But railgun has smaller explosion radius, lower capacity, higher heat per sec, I'd say ranged cannon is an outright better option now.
    That's just so wrong for a heavy-only weapon.

    Not too much because I don't want BE dual rail heavy to dominate again.

    Less barrel roll.

    Just like railgun, 45 damage is too low.
    It's not a very reliable weapon on its own with that damage.


    One burst = one clip.
    It needs more ammo.

    Walls are too strong against tank weapons, the losing team can drop a few walls and effectively delay the game for a while.
    <-- A pretty good example, even though it's the winning team.
    Almost indestructible walls have caused quite a lot of stalemate, IMHO the only thing that should stop a bunch of heavy tanks is another bunch of heavy tanks, not a bunch of walls.

    Our current 30 initial damage is the same as SMG1, that looks so wrong, even though the falloff is different.

    This will give BEAR much higher accuracy, initial damage, minimal damage.
    Slightly longer cycle time, a little more falloff.
    Although very powerful, 20 capacity will make sure you have to use it wisely.

    But BEAR may be a little too accurate with ironsight, so I am nerfing ironsight modifier
    NFAR completely dominates NFHR at close/mid range, even at long range NFHR is unable to stand out due to insufficient damage/capacity.
    Higher damage/standing accuracy will give NFHR a chance to fight off NFAR at close range.

    Slightly lower crotch/prone accuracy so that's less rapid-fire-laser-rifle for you.

    Same as BEAR, NFHR might be a little too accurate with ironsight.
    This is actually so fucked up.

    This is why we have people complaining about how NFAR is a laser rifle even though its non-ironsighted accuracy is just normal.

    0.85 is the same as BEHR.

    HMG needs help, it only has 75 capacity now and you lose stamina way too fast.
    Also it deals little damage, this is probably not enough but it helps.

    Because we don't know if we want tanks to be more expensive or not.
    So I am adding this first, to compensate the increased cost of Deflective/Compo/Capacitive.

    Ranged arty & HE arty are both useful.
    But Small/medium arty don't have much tactical usefulness, I am trying to fix this.
    Basically, longer cycle time, much higher single-shot damage, overall lower DPS.
    Because I don't think arty should fires like a machine gun.

    Larger explosion radius except for Ranged arty (I don't understand why ranged has largest radius.)
    Slightly longer range for Small/medium arty so they don't have to be ridiculously close to the target.

    Obviously, our coolant engine has 30 weight and it's not very coolant.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2016
  2. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    please, weve played this with bugged walls. people just need to learn to use the godddamn calculator ...

    ... i never thought walls are in need of nerfing, more like its players requiring a skill buff.
     
    Ranger likes this.
  3. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    no change to homing's damage? plasma MG?
     
  4. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Editted, now there's homing.

    I haven't submitted Plasma MG change.

    Actually I also forgot about the change of vehicle chassis cost, I just added that.

    In late game, it's not very safe to leave your vehicle just to decon a wall.

    A bunch of heavy tanks should brainlessly crush anything, if you can't send a bunch of heavy tanks to stop that and/or magically kill enemy CV, you deserve to lose the game.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
  5. Ranger

    Ranger Member

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    I love the BEAR and NFHR changes. The DPS is higher for both and all the accuracy stuff make them wonderful. I've loved using them the last few days. This is gonna nail it.

    I'm skeptic about the armour resistances. Deflective has resistances for missiles? Why? To me it's an anti-rail armour for NF mostly... while Reactive anti missile, but it has no resistances. I remember Catface told me Reactive is gonna be anti ml.
     
  6. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    Yeah let's make 1-shot instant kill laser rifles kill even faster. let's beat 166 kills on nuclear securty.
     
  7. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Honestly, I'd still use NFAR.

    NFAR still has higher burst DPS after this huge buff for NFHR, you know just how shitty it was.
     
  8. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm not sure what that .05 nerf to angle modifier is suppose to do. That just averages out to a 1% damage increase or something... That 10% resist just means you unnerfed it's hp from last patch.

    Still think that capactive armor there is a straight upgrade to reactive.
     
  9. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    so you thought you'd make BE's weapons just as laser like. Hm'kay
     
  10. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    There's Gren weapons and that's still 8 lower flat hp.

    That Capacitive will take 30~35% more damage from cannon, 20~25% more damage from missile, plus -0.1 angle modifier, also don't ignore that 0.06 heat gen, for 200 damage that's 12 heat for you. Just imagine in any tense skirmish you receive 12+ flat heat, that's definitely something.

    Oh annnnnnd, Reactive only costs 15.
    Slightly better? You never know. Outright upgrade? I disagree.

    Don't underestimate the limit of low capacity. For most players I believe they can only burst down 1 guy with BEAR and then they have to reload.

    Also, keep in mind that our BEAR is very very inaccurate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
  11. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Depends on weapon load outs, I'm used to hovering around 50% heat after fighting for a minute in my usual builds. Really the only thing feels hot is when you shove on 50 cal or some anti inf mg and dual he cannon, everything else is rather manageable.

    I've looked at the math and I still say it's an upgrade over reactive. The only thing is not being so hot against be heavies, otherwise it's pretty good.

    I know gren weapons don't affect it, but in this game where it feels like it's always tanks you fight grens have a little less impact on that. To me it just feels like tank fights will be kinda the same pre2.7 when people use reflect.
     
  12. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    i hate your changes

    your armor changes are bad. you increased all cost by 5, and you didnt lower the chassis cost to offset that. small pop games are made even more shit

    rail guns are already strong. cant wait for them to be used every game now, especially since you buffed reactive.

    nuke needs all the help it can get. a nerf is not the answer

    if i could remember what damage homing did i would say its probably really strong now. no use to get anything but it now

    ***wall changes are some of the most heinous in the history of empires. walls are what makes empires fun to play. you posted a video but all i see is a good commander doing his best to prevent advancement of the other team. a strategy. you want to eliminate more strategy?
    you didnt buff heavies damage. you buffed tank damage.
     
  13. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    It's right there. Also we have Absorbant, you can choose NOT to go for the expensive armor, you see how "one-single-overpowered-high-CP-ratio-armor" has downgraded our decision-making?

    Besides, we need higher res gain for low pop game, not cheaper tanks overall.
    First thing first, I am not dropping its weight, if I drop railgun's weight along with this buff, that would probably be too much.
    Second, railgun STILL only has 10 higher DPS than ranged cannon, it's heavier, it generates more heat per time unit, it has lower capacity and it has smaller explosion radius.
    Last, I am not saying railgun is peashooter now, it's just other options clearly outrank railgun.

    The only help nuke will ever need is "Nuke should deal much less damage to yourself", that's really all.
    You can still brainlessly throw that into enemy main and farm a lot of free kills/points, as long as you are protected.

    Guided can still burst your ass down if you are careless for just 2 seconds.
    Not buffing salvo damage because I know it's actually powerful.
    Single homing ML is simply shit.

    You know, I didn't record every single game, that video isn't the best example, it's just what I have now.
    For the last decade, I've seen enough games that walls managed to delay one team's inevitable defeat for 10~20+ minutes.
    By inevitable defeat I meant the losing team was not even planning on something(rush/ninja..etc), they were just dropping/repairing walls brainlessly.

    Wall would still be pretty strong, keep in mind that's still 20+ shells for you to take down a piece of wall, it's just not if-you-don't-decon-it-and/or-if-enemy-is-repairing-it-it-will-last-forever strong.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
  14. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Salvo homing weighs 100, and it only does 40 damage a missile. It's been kind of hard to use just because you can't shove a second weapon on a tank, like one to deal with infantry, like you can with other weapons which only weigh 70-80. I'm honestly not 100% sure about lockon time being reduced, it's pin point accurate so it's not hard to hit things without a lock on if tanks are close enough or you're just sieging buildings, but it's .3 seconds. It's still a far cry from the salvo homing we had last year that was like 50 damage and had a lock on time of .4 seconds, but back before then nf could only put one on and not melt any tank that comes close.

    I don't think regular homing needs that much more damage though, in empires it's more about getting damage on target and it's much easier to do with homing then uml. As a commander even though uml should do more damage it's only by 8 and I know more people would actually hit with homing over uml, so I wouldn't see much reason to get uml ever at this point. Even against just buildings homing at least doubles as an effective anti tank weapon and gives salvo homing, which is one of the best siege weapons strangely enough. Like I would have been ok with it but you're buffing reload speed and giving an extra missile, that's quite a few buffs for something that'll hit 80% of the time. Homing and uml both go at the same speed too, rather fast for a missile, so again it isn't like you can't use homing without a lock on just as you would with uml. Things would be way different if you could only fire with a lockon and effectively be a anti vehicle weapon only, but it doesn't work like that.

    I'm just saying, go ahead and buff the damage but don't decrease reload time and possibly that extra missile, I don't think it needs all these buffs.
     
  15. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    It's not just damage, homing ML has a heat gen of 10. :|
    Homing ML does not land 80% of the time, on the correct side.

    Keep in mind that dealing damage to the wrong side is very inefficient, especially against armor that has regeneration.

    I do agree that UML miiiiight need a little help, just a little.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
  16. PredatoR[HUN]

    PredatoR[HUN] Member

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    I don't like the rifle changes. Seriously, you touched everything else just a little bit to make them better but you put 12 damage on both of those rifles while also making them easier to use.
    I remember when NFHR used to do around 60 damage, it was absolutely horrible to play against. The scout rifle has 70 damage but it also has a second longer cycle time so you don't die in half a second.

    I played around with NFHR yesterday just to make sure I'm not talking out of my ass and it has it's place in the game right now, it's good. It's a fact that the NFAR and the BEHR are better most of the time but that should make you think about taking a good look at those weapons instead of just buffing the weaker weapons. Power creep is not great.

    With that said, I do agree that the BEAR should get a damage buff but I still feel 12 is too much. Increasing the minimal damage is a good call though, I think that's the right way to go. Overall I'd say keep the accuracy changes but think about reducing the damage buffs please.

    Maybe we should have a separate thread just for the rifle changes so we can have a discussion, I can't be the only one who feels this way about them.


    Also isn't it a bit redundant to nerf composite by increasing the cost just to decrease the cost of chassis?
     
  17. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    He did that to reflective too, it's so cheaper armors like abs and to an extent reactive/regen could be used to make cheaper tanks. If he just increased armor costs tanks overall would simply be more expensive. Not that I would hate that, it would mean less tanks...
     
  18. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I retract my statements about 2 slot homing buff, I totally forgot it had 10 heat.
     
  19. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    Homing can be good under the right circumstances, be most of the time it is crap, even with the damage boost. But I agree with reduced lock time, it's one of the big weakness of homing.
     
  20. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    I KNOW YOU LOWERED THE CHASSIS COST. YOU DIDNT LOWER IT ENOUGH

    e: all caps posts are allowed now. yay.
    the amount that you lowered the wall resistance makes me alarmed that walls will be useless. i hope you accounted for more than 1 heavy during testing
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2016

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