Script changes for 2.8.1

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Sgt.Security, Mar 26, 2016.

  1. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    heavies just shouldnt be jack of all trades. it would be totally sufficient if they had different armament. even though handling is a tad worse the difference is minor and they end up just being medium x2

    edit: or actually medium x3 since you have twice the weapons and 1.5 times the armor

    edit 2: i forgot about hull health, so its probably even medium x4

    (yes its not really med x4 i know thx)
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2016
  2. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Because they are a stronger meds. Meds feel like stalemates because meds don't quite have enough power to kill other meds. Heavies though tend to have the same amount of armor or a tad more, 4 plates a side maybe 5, but have an extra weapon. That extra weapon is what helps people actually pierce though all those armor plates. The slower and sometimes worse handling of heavies also helps prevent someone from running if they need repairs compared to meds.

    Honestly there's a bunch of ways to help endgame beyond removing heavies. And heavies can still have a place too. I don't quite agree with iklax about arty, it's true that a heavy with nukes or whatever basically replaces arty on a bunch of maps but arty has a few problems for it that not much can actually fix it. It's hard to use for new people, you can't really aim without moving the entire tank so it just feels awkward to use, coupled with the fact it is indirect firing and nearly requires gren's arty skill for anyone to hit anything also makes it hard to use. It has crap handling and not great armor means a simple light easily kills it. It's extremely unfriendly to anyone to use. If you did remove heavy and said arty is how you kill bases, I could still see not many comms getting it and simply opting to make infantry somehow able to kill buildings or spam more mediums.

    Anyways back to heavies, a problem now that I mentioned before and many feel is how useless infantry are late game. Those rpgs mean nothing really. Just give heavier chassis's a weakness to gren's rpg(meds too now that I think about it). It actually isn't hard. The other thing is an idea I mentioned a long ass time ago about simply making 3 slot weapons to 2 slots and converting the heavy to a side grade to meds.

    As an aside, I like the wall nerf mostly because of low pop games, I feel it would be helpful there because extra people aren't simply around in a low pop game.
     
  3. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    you might not win with mediums but you can push back the enemy far enough so that when they get heavies earlier they dont have the res for it

    its fine (wall nerf bad)
     
  4. Ranger

    Ranger Member

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    all games end up with swarms of heavies usually when in end game. to me this tactic looks no different than a lt rush. I still think mediums should be the main battle vehicles. heavies should be just awesome things for a few people like the super tanks of the game. something like the apocalypse tank from red alert 2 or the overlord from command and conquer generals. Since meds cant foxus on infantry as well as heavies for obvious reasons (heavies better equipped so they can afford spending time on killing infantry in battle etc. heck u can make infantry killing heavies) , so i think this would bring more types of vehicles in the fight; meaning support vehicles. MG APC basically. ye. so ye.

    Im sure if tanks required construction time we would have a significant factor for balance in the game. Time. Well I guess increasing heavies cost would decrease its use but I don't like this idea.

    Or maybe lazybum's idea maintenance fees https://forums.empiresmod.com/index.php?threads/maintenance-fees.20165/#post-525604

    sorry for bed englidh
     
  5. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    This reminds me of another suggestion I made.
    https://forums.empiresmod.com/index.php?threads/weapon-manufacturing.19247/

    That one was a total game changer though. Holds a lot of appeal to me because of much more relevant lights become even in the late game.
     
  6. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    @Lazybum arties are rubbish, but that's mainly because they've been completely narrowed down in their niche. Still they shouldn't really be intended to be used as front or even secondary line vehicles. It wouldn't be hard to buff the med weapons a bit, though, if killing power is the real issue.

    It's not a big deal, I just still don't see the real reason for heavies in the game. There's partial reasoning, sure, but that's mainly because most other vehicles have had their niche narrowed to accommodate it. That's just my opinion though, tbh I like tank balance right now and if infantry could be a bit more effective vs heavies, as always, that'd be nice.

    To be honest, I'd rather have differently functioning weapons than we do, though. When you buff rpg's vs tanks you can quickly end up with a bunch of fresh heavies being instantly stripped of their armour after a volley of hits. Sure that doesn't happen all the time, but whenever I'm in a heavy I feel the whole point of it is to be able to have some staying power on the front line. When you buff these things, you end up with the situation of people storming in and getting pwned, and then reporting it as paper armour.

    ...I want to be random here, and say I'd rather prefer mortars worked a little better against heavies. There's a few reasons for this but they're all pretty subjective. Mostly it's about being able to see them easier (the explosion radius and sound, I find), having the infantry being safer while firing, and being able to get away from them as a heavy. Not sure how that would work, though.

    I do like Ranger's idea. It would be cool if heavies were sort of like that, really behemothy like a super weapon, but maybe on a timer so you couldn't spawn one very often. It would almost make it something to push with and keep alive, to batter down your enemy's base.
     
  7. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    The real problem with any super vehicles of any sort is who gets it? There's the 2 obvious answers, commander picks and who on top of the scoreboard. But holy moly I don't want to deal with the whining of someone not getting the fancy thing. Top of the score board is also bad just because the reward for doing well is getting something to do even better then all the plebs beneath you, and why the hell would that ever be good design? At least with heavies everyone can still get one thanks to wages.

    The only thing I'm gonna say for rpgs is I seriously can't remember the last time I successfully taken down a heavy even with the help of someone other gren. When I'm in the tank it's pretty much always other tanks killing me.

    Oh, I want to say that it isn't exactly meds don't do enough damage, after all you have to consider them killing bases and those weapons do well enough, but you have to consider all the subtle buffs armor has been getting over time this past year. Things just last longer, that's about the sum of it.
     
  8. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Things like this make me feel like I really should just do whatever the fuck I want.
    Well, someone's gonna hate the changes, but at least I am happy if my changes are there.

    Top of the scoreboard actually isn't a bad idea.
    Why wouldn't you want me to drive your super vehicle, I mean, why? I can't think of a valid reason except for griefing. This also applies to when you can only afford one heavy tank and you just give it to a random nub(aka vet) instead of me, that's just telling me how much you want to lose the game. *ego overflowing*


    Anyway, I might make heavy tank take 25% more damage from RPG, 15% more for medium tank, that's not a bad idea.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2016
  9. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Why give the game winning, or rather losing, piece in the hands of someone stuck in the bottom half of the scoreboard?

    When I said that I was mostly thinking of killstreaks from cod. There was something absolutely retarded about how the guy who got 10 or something kills in a row gets a helicopter that annihilates everyone on the map. I just can't even.

    For empires you're right, commander is gonna shove whoever they can trust into it and here it probably is fine. Key point here is trust though, which doesn't exactly translate to top score. I just don't want to deal with that whining, people whine enough as is for not giving them all of my attention.:|
     
  10. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    lazybum said its good for low pop games, because the extra people aren't around. so i guess when the extra people are around the changes are bad??? wasnt my entire point about the walls that when theres more than 2 people who are testing changes by shooting a wall, they will fall apart instantly?
    its like security doesnt even read posts and just agrees with the stuff that fits his view

    heres something that was tested with more than 6 people: the arty. and it was bad.

    and now as we see in his last post he wants only the elite players to drive the good vehicles and all those new shit players can go fuck themselves. a real visionary. people are really going to want to play this game
     
  11. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    I like it mostly with low-pop =/= I hate it when it comes to high-pop.
    You are dealing with real players in Empires, that means units don't fire at the same piece of wall even if you specifically asked them to, even in organized scrims I swear this just never happens.
    Two heavy tanks should melt a piece of wall if they are actually firing at that very same piece of wall, that's the concept.

    Walls will still be extremely useful in early-mid game because I didn't touch a jack shit about it. It's just you can no longer use it as a way to delay the game and that means shorter late-game.
    I thought you guys said how much you hate late-game and now you are telling me walls should be super strong? What?
    You can keep telling me how much you hate the nerf or you can actually tell me WHY it's a bad change.

    Correct me if I am wrong but what I heard about arty is that you guys parked a 6-compo heavy tank there and fired your arty at it, it took 3 shots.
    Just so you know, if you do the same test with dual guided, the tank dies twice as fast.
    Also a lot of you whined about how much games have arty lost, now you guys have problems with good arty?

    Commander decision would be the best, I am just saying that top scoreboard isn't bad, too.
    I am fairly sure you would love the commander so much if he chooses to give Hobbes the only heavy tank instead of you or me, that's some nice decision-making as a commander, we all love that.
    We aren't getting that kind of super vehicle to begin with.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2016
  12. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    i like strong walls because they either force a driver out of their indestructo tank or at least make them work with an engi.
    if its now also becoming a wall-clearer, theres not much left a heavy cant do.
     
  13. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    With the cost of longer late-game, obviously.
    It's the same as 2 tanks firing at the same piece of wall, not gonna happen even if you asked people to do it.
     
  14. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    well i also enjoy long rounds (as long as its not long because one team deliberately prolongs it to rank kills) , so thats no con from my perspective at least.
    as for teamwork, reducing the requirement wont bring up more either.
     
  15. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    The long games you'll get with strong walls are exactly those prolonged games, not balanced ones.
    If long games - strong walls = short games, that's prolonged games for me.
     
  16. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    We can always actually give it a shot just like when spartacus did script changes. Though I guess with how steam updates are currently working it's harder to isolate just script changes to push out.

    At the end of the day it's just guessing to most of us for what works. Even security. We just call it an educated guess as oppose to random guess.

    Oh as an aside to things like tank changes, quite often a med and heavy can have roughly the same damage output. Uml+cannon is kinda the same as dual cannon or dual missile after all and that's what quite a few people run with. Well hemg too, but hemg doesn't do anything to walls so that's a non issue here. Though most don't use uml, usually choosing bio for good reasons. Still, it's something to consider as with most things.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2016
  17. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    its neither like that, nor what i meant. when i said "deliberately prolonged" games i mean those guys who destroy everything but the last rax and only end the game when theres no tickets left for them to absorb as points.

    except for that unbuilt brenodi walls are tad better (unless that got changed in one of the recent versions) to fire over, they are balanced by design (its the same for both teams). even if a piece of wall would have a million health theyd still be balanced since both teams would have such walls.
     
  18. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Okay I didn't make that clear, you misunderstood that.
    There are two types of long games
    1: Balanced long games (Mostly we enjoy this.)
    2: Prolonged long games.
    If long games - strong walls = short games, that's prolonged long games for me.
    If long games - strong walls = long games, that's balanced long games for me.

    Strong wall is definitely top 3 reason why some Canyon/Slaughtered/King/Mvalley/Duststorm(in ruins)/Streetsoffire/Bootybay.... games take forever to end, and the process is just depressing for both teams.
     
  19. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Walls in king? I don't remember walls being a factor in king, not when there's a bunch of ways for infantry to get around the map or how in the warehouse part commanders can't even build anything.
     
  20. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    ah, walling off works on every map with cliffs (where geometry doesnt allow for wallriding), i get what security means, but i think it also has negative effects on games where both sides are balanced skillwise. because then i find it quite enjoyable, it becomes a real team archievement to break through.

    but maybe that means hes right. the vast majority of games aint like that ...

    ... at all.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2016

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