Empires Summer Scrim League Game 3 - 27th June 21:00 BST/ 16:00 EDT/ 13:00 PDT

Discussion in 'General' started by Trickster, Jun 20, 2015.

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  1. PredatoR[HUN]

    PredatoR[HUN] Member

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    It was Spike's idea.
     
    PredatoR[HUN], Jun 22, 2015
    #41
  2. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    yeah nobody mentioned that

    e: fine then, only noobs dont get rails when you have a treaty to not get plasma
     
    complete_, Jun 22, 2015
    #42
  3. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Considering that our community is tightly mixed with the dev team.
    I have to say any kind of treaty is a stupid idea.
    Plasma is not even old-bioML-OP.

    I wouldn't be surprised if we have "no-BioML" next week.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2015
    Sgt.Security, Jun 22, 2015
    #43
  4. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm not entirely surprised people don't consider it, but abs is actually nice here. It completely nullifies(and then some) the heat to target of plasma, and reduced damage of plasma down to 53, a little less than a plate. Now that still sounds like a lot, but abs is also only 12 weight, so you can have 5-6 plates of abs on a heavy, compared to a reactive which will have 3-4 plates and takes the full heat and 80 damage.

    The problem is still bio though, bio negates every single armor bonus in this game. Reflect don't help it, speed to damage doesn't matter to it, it does more damage then regen so you end up with a a crappy low hp tank, and cooling never comes into play. Which is why bio is super amazing and probably the only missile you could ever want barring super long range encounters. I bring bio up with plasma because at the cost of a plate or two, you can get bio along with plasma. It's quite harsh.

    Or if you want to keep the armor get an antitank mg, they ignore the speed to damage modifier of abs too I think.
     
    Lazybum, Jun 22, 2015
    #44
  5. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    Rails are terrible. Pretty much all vehicle weapons get about 60s of fire time. That's the benchmark that "feels good" to most people. Rails have half that, so people hate them.
     
    ImSpartacus, Jun 22, 2015
    #45
  6. D.D.D. Destroyer

    D.D.D. Destroyer Member Staff Member Moderator

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    Sounds like a casual problem that pubbers have.
     
    D.D.D. Destroyer, Jun 22, 2015
    #46
  7. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    shouldnt be a problem in a scrim game though, easy enough for someone to place ammo

    pretty easy in pub games on maps with one chokepoint too
     
    complete_, Jun 22, 2015
    #47
  8. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Ammo? No fucks given, always drive vehicle as engi.

    No ammo? At the heavy tank stage, you should have repair pads anyway.

    No repair pad? Ragequit.
     
    Sgt.Security, Jun 22, 2015
    #48
  9. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    Even then, dps is only 12% more than er cannon. Historically, rails have had 50+% more dps than er cannon.

    People get scared and nerf weapons way way more than necessary. Plasma cannon is undoubtedly about to meet a similar fate.
     
    ImSpartacus, Jun 23, 2015
    #49
  10. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    From what I've seen the problem isn't anything to do with damage. It overheats the enemy not to mention being good against infantry, vehicles and buildings.
     
    Trickster, Jun 23, 2015
    #50
  11. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    It's an accidental carry over from when candles was making changes. Candles got rid of htt so went with the notion of making plasma he cannon +1, but when spike added in htt back it kept everything else. I will say the damage is high as hell though, it's the same damage output as ranged and currently the same heat output too, it's a straight buff over ranged cannon for a measly 10 extra weight.

    It's easy enough to fix to either make a new weapon, a plasma cannon that's useful without being op, or keep the theme of he cannon +1, you just can't have it all. Not unless you raise the heat to something like 15-20, but when you get that high people don't terribly like the idea of it, not when cannons tend to be the main damage dealing weapon on a tank.
     
    Lazybum, Jun 23, 2015
    #51
  12. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    As lazybum said, it was nigh perfect before it got a htt. Just a 3 slot he cannon. That was candles' goal and he did a good job on it.

    But when you give it a pretty fearsome heat to target without any other changes, then now it's quite a bit better than it oughta be.

    However, the solution isn't some simple "decrease damage by 10". You can't just add htt to any weapon, nerf its damage and then be golden. Htt weapons are a different animal entirely. They work best with a high cycle time that neuters their dps against stuff like buildings without their ability to effectively drop a "heat bomb" on enemy vehicles.

    There are a of "buttons and knobs" that the scripts give you and using them is not as simple as it looks.
     
    ImSpartacus, Jun 23, 2015
    #52
  13. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I disagree about cycle time, though you can use it if you want to balance htt. The main way to balance it is making sure heat is higher than htt, see plasma mg for example. If you are lowering their effective damage output of their tanks then you shouldn't be able to make so many shots in the first place. Plasma should be support type weapon, something that a few tanks have because it gives you an edge in a fight but not outright destroying tanks. If you don't have tank buddies around you get bio ml or some anti tank mg to help increase your damage while plasma does it's job on lowering their damage.

    Another way to look at plasma is it's more of a defensive type weapon, I think the only kind in empires. You don't get a good offense with a defense, that's silly.

    If you want an example on making plasma an effective tank destroyer I have a small example in that rehaul I did, though I fine tuned it in a new batch I was working on.
     
    Lazybum, Jun 23, 2015
    #53
  14. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    I agree that would result in a defensive weapon, but do we really want defensive weapons?

    Unfortunately, map design heavily favors chokepoints because the skill ceiling on a chokepoint map much much lower than equivalent open map. And it's already easy to get caught in a boring slog in a chokepoint. It only gets worse when we have defensively minded weapons.

    Though if open maps were more popular, then defensive weapons would certainly have a better fit (and the game would probably play better in general).
     
    ImSpartacus, Jun 23, 2015
    #54
  15. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    I'd honestly just give infantry a decent resist to it and buildings a minor resist and barely change it otherwise.
     
    Trickster, Jun 23, 2015
    #55
  16. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    Stop overheating infantry!
     
    BigTeef, Jun 23, 2015
    #56
  17. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    I love you, but resists are lazy as hell. There's nothing wrong with being lazy, but it confuses people in this situation.

    Resists are so "black box-ie" or "behind the scenes-ie" that people sometimes just randomly blame shit on resist changes.

    "I can't believe they made er cannon suck."

    "Er cannon hasn't been touched in like three years..."

    "Then it was the resists or something. They keep changing things and not telling us."

    That really happened not even a week ago.

    That's one of side benefits of a higher cycle time plasma cannon. It's very tangible and people instantly "get it".
     
    ImSpartacus, Jun 23, 2015
    #57
  18. 101010

    101010 Member

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    Kind of like how grenadier hasn't been changed in years despite what some people say...
    But things have resistant changes.
     
    101010, Jun 23, 2015
    #58
  19. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    hey you know what would be pretty cool?
    to have a very small patch to address this little problem instead of having no updates for 2 months
     
    complete_, Jun 23, 2015
    #59
  20. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    This doesn't address the fact that it can overheat enemy tanks faster than it can overheat itself. 10 htt versus 8 heat. It's a seemingly minor difference, but considering the enemy tank is producing heat along heat it receives from plasma it quickly accumulates and makes it easy to overheat, thus ensuring it's a dead tank. We can't fire past the heat limit either, so in a tank fight you can't abuse bio engine to get shots out anyway. It's simply a frustrating affair to deal with.

    If you just wanted to look at damage as the source of balance, then yes some simple resist changes aren't bad if it helps make things work the way you want it. But it's still really amazing, near op, in a tank fight and a resist change doesn't quite fix the reason it's op.

    Actually this makes me wonder, does the splash damage have htt? And is it the full amount?
     
    Lazybum, Jun 23, 2015
    #60
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