dizzy brings up some good points.. but agian with some of the new features introduced like the icons on the mini map blinking will let someone know where an enemy is at.. like if a ninja was sneaking up he would have to kill an mg first but that would let everyone on the team know where he is.. giving them time to die and respawn in time to kill him.. its possible for rambos but it makes it 10 times harder.. most of my ninjas have only been possible because the comm watched my back and spotted things i could not see.. and then the times where we used group hide to get past a turret farm.. so basically it takes team work to make it easier and i dunno i still think that a single gren with the 9 mine trick should be able to kill a heavy tank.. i mean usally the only place this happens is on escort which is often counterd by a single infantry member going an killing himself so the tank can get thru safely.. and that is team work but i still think that being able to kill a whole base should nerfed.. my fix would be nerf mines agianst buildings(people who run in and drop mines in barracks to kill them) but leave them how they are for tanks.. including cv
So basically the general consensus is, learn to defend against a gren or GTFO. I love it! This reminds me of the time they had to add the comm warning sound because of the legendary Ninjaneers. God damn, I remember when we had a full team build a rax behind the enemy base and everyone went engy and we deconned that sucker in 10 secs. Good times
Taking out the 9th mine trick will not curb CV ninjaing. Dropping 8 of them and then shooting a rocket or a mortar at the CV accomplishes the exact same thing because the rocket moves the CV a bit, but just enough to set off the mines. With that in mind, I've been wondering if this will still work if the Commander is a Grenadier with Defusal skill.
These are just small visual aids, hasn't changed anything substantial, same issue remains, which is that ninjaing as a whole is overpowered (not just grenadiers, keep your little mg turret defence comments away). I don't care if its fun, its overpowered. I never said these kind of ninjas should be removed, I never actually said ninjaing should be removed. When I said remove 9th mine trick, it was part of many things to change gameplay into a less chaotic style of play. Everything should be done to promote these kind of ninjas and everything that canprevent one player pwnages (read not making a single player useless) should be done. 9th mine the game can do without, I'm not saying the game can do without ninjaing, I don't even dislike ninjaing, I just don't like it that it rule way too many games. You're saying it takes teamwork to take down one guy with 8 mines? Isn't this proving exactly the point that its overpowered? Imo mines should be mines, not explosives. edit: typos lol, also said something like "everything that can be done should be prevented"
well it doesnt always need team work.. sometimes what i've done is drive up like im headed to the mine field and then back up rite before they trigger them.. its really just about out smarting him or another one is use diffusal and hopefully you can drive over it before he triggers it.. but agian this is kinda like the overpowered mowtar on district.. i really only see this happening on escort.. and latley BE has been the winning team.. so i dont think the 9 mine trick is really overpowered enough to ruin a game i see what your getting at tho edit: well i guess that suggestion about a mine dissapearing would stop this.. it could make it so diffusal would always work unless you have an idiot team mate step on it... but then escort needs to be fixed in favor of nf double edit: the more i think about this.. the more i like the idea of taking out the 9th mine trigger.. even tho its fun and i like it.. this wont stop ninjas because they can trigger it with a rocket.. and this would stop mass base kills.. and that bug where you can use mines to flip your apc over walls to get under the map.. this would fix a bunch of shit in one little change
Warning: long post ahead. I was the commander of the losing team in the match that started this thread, and I must say that I see this loss not as an issue of bad balancing, but rather as my fault entirely. We were BE on Streetsoffire and had the other team back to their spawn and the streets around it. I don't have to tell you that NF has a very hard time when they are that far back. So an APC rush was their best, if not only, chance. I expected it and I didn't build defenses fast enough even though Opie reminded me of it. When they came I didn't flee, because I didn't want grens in my empty main base plus more grens in an APC driving around behind our lines. Bad decisions in retrospect, but oh well, the round is over. My point is: we (mostly I) could have avoided this by playing better, period. Apologies to my team. Be assured that I banged my head on the table for about ten minutes after this round when I realized my stupidity. Anyway, my two cents on the whole issue, which are pretty redundant, feel free to skip at will: As for ninjas in general: I think as a tactical option they are vital to the game because once a team is cornered, without res, without refs, with a VF under fire, they are simply running out of options, and why should you hold the base for ten more minutes anyway when you know there's no chance of winning? And since a ninja attempt can be countered by securing your base properly, I think it is not the unfair, lame, easy win as some people see it. Sure, it sucks to lose to a ninja, but there are ways to be safe from them. I don't see the need to change this. Now early APC rushes (not to be confused with late APC rushes like the one yesterday), that's a different thing. First, defeating them is much harder. Second: losing a round after a couple of minutes with little chance for resistance is frustrating and winning a game after a few minutes with little resistance is boring. Second: In my opinion, in a strategy game, people are meant to build a base first, then battle the other team (of course I didn't make Empires and I don't know how Krenzo wants us to play it, but it is a strategy game after all). So you want to reward people for playing that way, but if an APC rush is a better tactic than building the base and getting refs, they are punished and not rewarded. And then the game should be changed so that people are rewarded for playing the game the way it's meant to be. So we want to make it harder to APC rush, without destroying other parts of the gameplay. Options are: -Make APCs require a research. This would simply delay the time until your first APC. But it would also affect other aspects of the gameplay, especially forward bases (for example, we had an APC parked under the bridge in that very game since the first minute) -Restrict nine mining. Aside from the fact that this affects ninjas too, ninth mining is only a small part of an APC rush. Three grens can kill a CV or a rax quite quickly with just mortars. Also, a ninth mine trap is good for other things besides ninjaing, for example for NF on Escort or when a gren uses them to damage enemy buildings. I have mixed feelings about this. Mines are basically defense weapons, meant for making an area inaccessible. On the other hand, with all the pros in the closed beta test, almost every driver has defuse, and I think it's nice for a footsoldier to at least have an option to counter that. Somehow it has this RTS-rock-paper-scissors-principle feeling to it. In the end it's the game creators' choice whether to allow us to think outside the box with using mines or not. I especially would like to hear the game creator's comments on that, by the way. -Second CV seat. This would mean that you have an extremely heavily guarded APC right from the beginning of the round. What keeps a comm from just driving over to the enemy base, unloading somebody who proceeds to kill the enemy rax? That sounds rather like a change that actually promotes APC rushes. -armed CV. Nah. -MLs at round start. I favor this option, because it touches almost no other aspect of the game. In my opinion turrets are there to slow down people, no more, no less. Even two Level 3 MLs can't hold off a tank attack in the late game, but in the early game they would be pretty effective. You either need to speed past them which can be mortal with a paper-vanilla-as-cheap-as-possible-APC or have the grens get out and mowtar the turrets, which will drastically slow the attack down. -Give a gren less than 8 mines / Make the CV so strong it can't be killed by eight mines. This would affect ninjas more than APC rushes. I have killed a CV once with five mines plus one mortar shot that detonated the mines (or moved the CV which detonated the mines). Also, if your APC survives you can just run back to it and restock. -Command blimp. Yay! So, long story short, I like having turrets at the beginning. Yes, I could have just said that. No, I don't always talk this much. P.S.: If we are to get command blimps I want it so that you get a new player model for the player who is voted comm and make him look like a stereotypical german complete with monocle, moustache, and Pickelhaube that can be used to pierce the enemy blimp and deflate it. Would that be too much of a problem, Krenzo?
I'm so glad someone actually mentioned my idea...even if it was to rubbish it. Yes, it would change the game, possibly more than I thought, however, to rush a driver over there, the cv has to expose itself to attack...and is also easily deterred by walls. If you're worried by the attack, you could make the driver class specific - e.g. only let a rifleman drive rather than a base dangerous grenadier, scout or engineer. Restricting the engy, also means you can't rush to a forward base and fast build with 2 people, if that also troubles you. If you think of the upsides of this idea - like a comm being able to still manage the team while being pinned down, and escaping easier, at the deficit of a player, make alot of sense and don't unbalance the game - the idea changes the game slightly,sure , but doesnt unbalance it. Something like making the cv have diffusal would surely remove a useful tool from the game. p.s. i'm aware I use comma's too much.
nah restricting driving to only certain class would be stupid i like being engi while driving so i can get ammo to my missile tanks and rep them if needed also that would make vehicle skills of each other class useless make 1st mine dissapear if you lay 9th and make comm and building more resistant to mines
Why is this being made an issue of... If a com doesn't know how to defend his most valuable asset from a single infantry man using turrets he deserves to lose In any battlefield if a general was left undefended I'm pretty sure he'd be blown apart by the enemy in no time, so its a valid tactic Also I agree that mines shouldn't be used as remote explosives, but a replacement should be found so those kind of attacks are still possbile Such as a choice between remote satchels or mines There should be less satchels but they should have more power
And if a single infantryman can get past defences because his team attracts attention to another side of the base, and then kills the CV, it isn't a valid tactic, since a single infantryman does not carry enough equipment to destroy a heavily armoured tank.
lol...I assure you there are weapons in the world that anti tank infantry carry that can kill....tanks!! Who would of thought!! ~ Also you have avoided the fact that a few turrets would of prevented this altogether :D
Only if the com doesn't know how to defend I've commed many times in the past and I've only been mined a few times since I learn't how to defend the cv Edit: Also I'd like to point out that I've only mined a com once so I don't often use this tactic. I just believe it is a valid tactic and coms should be blamed when it happens, just as ninjas should be congratulated
dizzy: you are definately NOT going to get any epic games without being able to ninja, because as soon as one team becomes dominant, you will see the teams slip from 15 v 15 to 15 vs 6 players, people quitting, not bothering, etc. why should I spend 30 seconds of my time mindlessly holding a button and facing a wall (i.e, repairing the radar) when it is inevitable that i am just wasting my time. personally, in those situations, with a rubbish team, and if there was no hope, i would just suicide the CV and get a new fun round started. and i know lots of people feel the same. ----------------------------------------- the fact is that stopping ninjas isn't roulette- it just takes the tiniest bit of effort.
Krenzo suggested a while back that playing the "Commander is under attack" sound if an enemy player gets within mining range of the CV. I liked that idea, as it should reduce the amount of ninjas, while still allowing them to try.
This is the kind of thing that causes me to burst a mental circuit. We know how the game is played, we know of the little things that can make big changes in game. Sometimes this shit just DOES happen, but it shouldn't be changed because someone can't handle being in a comm vehicle. Obviously the commanding position IS NOT FOR EVERYONE because commanding requires intelligence that some people lack. If 1 man frequently kills you when you're in a comm, then you're stupid. However there are occurences where some random guy just gets ya. There are so many strategies to defend against a saboteur that it boggles my mind how some people can be so stupid not to notice the grens. It has happened to me a couple of times but every time I get new ideas to defend. That's the difference though. Some people don't learn from their mistakes. But also, if a team knows that someone sucks as comm and you vote for him, then you're stupid as well. GG Empires needs a warning label "Warning, game is not meant for people who forget to breathe when playing online games" More like "Empires: Darwinism in action" amirite? Or soon to be "Empires: From man to monkey" if something is not done to curb the obvious favoritism for the idiots who play the game. Edit: Let me clarify my position. We don't need safeguards for commanders because a team deserves commander who can play without them. There will be flukes in game but the flukes are part of every game.
Don't tell people they're stupid, it's rude. You just proved the game is unbalanced: any person should be able to command, it's a game. EDIT: It seems people misunderstood me: what i mentwas being able to command a game and not getting 5 ninjas stick a foot up your ass.
I'm honest. Every can command already, but not everyone can win. Is your idea of a balanced game where a person who plays for 1 day can beat someone who's been playing for 1 year? Then I guess the game isn't balanced. NERF INTELLIGENCE.
