A Liar In Our Midst-Guns and Wham-o

Server owners can definitely ban anyone from his/her server, it's their rights.
In fact, if Vicki's saying that Guns has been permanently banned from the server, I wouldn't have a problem with that, why would anyone have a problem with that?

But since when are you in any position to add on that and say he's permanently banished from this community?
Having a slice of contribution doesn't mean you get to play as the judge.

We all have our slice of contribution, we get to speak.

If you think we don't get to speak, that means you think the development of this game would've been the same/better without us, which is outright bullshit.

 

IMO he wasn't made an example of. and just because the community is small is not a reason to excuse constant destructive and damaging behavior.
Gun's actions have been forgiven and overlooked for years by me and others. But when someone crosses the line and refuses to make an apology to those he tried to undermine and damage and many have tried talking to him and they have just gotten frustrated because all he would do is site pages of excuses that were based on lies and not once showed any sense of regret or admitted to any blame for those he hurt, instead he blamed others for his poor behavior and actions and tried to ruin reputations in the process of trying to cover his ass.

Z1000m and the rest who have such a strong opinion, your opinions are not based on facts or the incidences. The ones in this thread who know nothing about the facts are the only ones accusing others of unfair treatment towards guns.

 

I've been helping run EPIC and JFR before that time, as well as organizing tests, meetings and other things.

Including me, but not only. Nor was I the first they person they complained to. I have receive complaints in my position as admin on JFR.

Vicky complained to me directly, as well as others. Trickster and Spike have also received complaints. You are free to ask them all to confirm.

Were you directly affected? We are simply stating that he has been banned, that there is a reason for this that we all agreed on, and that the behaviour for which he was banned has been systematic.

I think from reading the thread alone you can already spot at least two people, Vicki and myself, as well as VIPER admins that have been affected.

And I would hardly call us a a tight nit group of people. Unless you somehow want to imply there is a conspiracy going on against Guns.

Sorry, but he hasn't just been banned for his behaviour on Vipers or to Vicki. His actions spanned all the active servers, and as a result this action has been taken. Because of the existing bans on all (regularly) active servers and the forums he has indeed effectively been banished. Again, this was not my decision alone. I don't get why people keep implying this.

Yes and no. You are allowed to ask us to elaborate and disagree, but please don't pretend like we are somehow obliged to inform you about the specifics of the decision, and the reasons for it (Which however, we are). Reasons that primarily and mostly affected us and not you.

I'm also at loss here why you'd think its implied that development would better off without you and others because we ended up banning Guns.

 

Pretty much this. I've seen smaller communities (perm) ban people for less.

 

Well your "opinions" are not based on any facts either since youve not presented any!
So far this thread has been nothing but 3 people circlejerking one another.

This is no justification whatsofuckingever.

 

Facts don't dissolve only because you don't get to look at them.

 

If you want to go full physics, let me tell you that nothing is certain unless actively observed.

 

Z1000m whats your stake in this? why do you choose not to believe me or anyone else when you know me as a server owner I have rarely if ever perma anyone in this community.

when I have bent over backward to forgive players and allow them to play on my server including paradox and freak.

what past behavior of mine are you basing it on to to come to the conclusion what I am saying is not factual??

 

What do you mean whats my stake? Why do i need one? Far as i can see someone is getting pushed around for no credible reason. I do not need a selfish reason to oppose that.

I believe in proof and actions over words.

Its not a conclusion, you just never produced any proof despite claiming you have some. Until backed, it remains just a your side of a story. I dont instantly believe everything i read on the internet, reputation is irrelevant.

 

you did conclude you made it clear
you said
"Well your "opinions" are not based on any facts either since youve not presented any!
So far this thread has been nothing but 3 people circlejerking one another."

 

you decided because you were not privy to the facts they do not exist.

 

First off, thank you Catface for the explanation. I appreciated all of it, I think your priorities are in order and your perspective is very measured. You seem to have a good sense of what is important for the community, and what is important for any decision of this magnitude.

From what I can tell, the perspective seems to be that Guns has become… somewhat of a mini Mr. Voldemort. I’d be very, very much surprised if this was actually true, but I could completely understand if overeager activism on Guns’ part, coupled with assumptions from incomplete information, has led to some really shitty drama and the appearance of intentional sowing of discontent. The fact that Guns hasn’t apologized is something I’ll take you on your word for and I’m sad to see him go if that is what the community needs. However, my fear is that based on what little concrete information is available so far, that maybe an echo chamber effect within the dev and server admin community caused the particular problem that Guns became to seem much bigger than it was.

So I say this with as much weight as I can give it, because this is the only thing I think is missing (as Security and Z10o0o0m hit on): If the affected parties would please air their grievances a little, or present some specific scenarios on what Guns has done, it would be greatly appreciated. If for nothing else, it would assist in the understanding and certainly aid in the “learning experience” that this maybe should be (for Guns if no one else). With all due respect for you Catface, as the enactor of the punishment it’s hard to take your perspective as evidence (e.g. judge and jury shouldn’t be witness stand too), or Viki’s as the arbiter of her server (Vicki I say that knowing you know how much respect I have for your contribution to this community). So it would be nice if some of the other affected parties explained a little, not for the purposes of argument, but for the community members that were not “affected” but still care about the community it would certainly help us to understand.

To give some information on where I’m coming from, I’ve personally never had a bad interaction with Guns, for whatever that is worth to this discussion, but in my opinion it is saying a heck of a lot for the amount of time that both he and I have been a part of the community. However I’ve also never had him run to me with anything, nor try to affect my opinion or get me to take action on anything. I respect Predator and his opinion, and thank him for sharing as it helps me understand a little more about why this is happening. I would very much like to hear from other members of the community that Guns has negatively affected, if they would be so kind as to share as well. For me, this whole event is really disappointing, and at this point I am of a like mind with Sgt. Security.

TL;DR, I don't know what else this thread could even be for than to provide some specific examples of what occured and why it is unacceptable, thanks.

 

thats right ,"so far", meaning its subject to change if necessary

 

Zoom, you are asking for evidence. I'll present you with one of the most infamous incidents.

Remember the drama months ago, about me and Awpolt having deliberately and nefariously trashtalked Candles into leaving?

Well. First of all, please read the following excerpt. (Spike can vow for its authenticity) This took place after he was banned.

Ϟ|JFR|Ϟ Scar: you have been banned from jfr server, epic server and the empires forums for shittalking devs and server owners, making false allegations agaisnt people in an attempt to create unnecessary drama and taking secret recordings of people without there permission in an attempt to stir shit beetween community members though taking there conversations out of context
Ϟ|JFR|Ϟ Scar: ๖ۣۜGuns and Wham-Ō: no
๖ۣۜGuns and Wham-Ō: its clear ive been taken out of context
๖ۣۜGuns and Wham-Ō: Catface talked shit.
๖ۣۜGuns and Wham-Ō: Not me.
๖ۣۜGuns and Wham-Ō: I spoke well of vicki, catface, and candles.
๖ۣۜGuns and Wham-Ō: Ive done my best to be kind to them all.
๖ۣۜGuns and Wham-Ō: I talked with candles while catface was talking to me
๖ۣۜGuns and Wham-Ō: And I wasnt the only one listeneing. Frax talked with candles. ANd so did others.
๖ۣۜGuns and Wham-Ō: I just got named. Frax didnt.
๖ۣۜGuns and Wham-Ō: Go fly was listening too. WHy isnt he banned.

Except, the problem is that Both JGF and Frax weren't present at the time. You can ctrl+f the chat log that Vicki posted in the other thread if you wish. The only mention of Frax is hours after the match took place.
All steam IDs are logged every time a new match starts, even if people were present during the previous match.

Why is he trying to throw Frax and JGF under the bus and saying they were listening and talking as well? They weren't even present at the time!

And there is the fact it is Guns who originally stated that Candles was working on Empires for college credit.
However, after saying that, he asks Creeper to turn on all talk (even though the conversation was between him and Awpolt - both in spec - the whole time), starts recording and then starts acting all nice (praising Candles, etc.).

Awpolt is no longer around, mainly because of this incident. But he did tell me at the time that Guns had told him that Candles was doing development solely as a college project (and monopolizing it) before the match.

This is but one of many examples, and he's done the same with me. Openly praising Vicki for example, but then secretly telling me she was insane, paranoid, illogical, volatile, etc. and that I should't listen to her.

 

Is this whole last bit concerning that one time on district or am i misreading.

 

Correct.

Also, more people are going to elaborate on what he did, and more evidence is upcoming.

 

I had a post typed out but I'll just give the tl;dr version.

Catface, they don't trust you. They also don't trust Vicki's judgement. And as much as I like Spike, him being your corroborating evidence is sketchy at best since mostly people see him as a raging, mouthy..chap.

This is probably the beginning of an uphill battle for you. No one's really seen anything from you yet in terms of development, and your most recent introduction to the community was this scandal, which a lot of people still aren't clear about.

The only thing I can say is...I talked to Awpolt when this went down and I'm moderately convinced he just stumbled into a minefield and then redistributed that information. He was a CW though, so I would say that.

 

Another reason why district is a shit map.

Every time there is an incident or drama, its on district.

Spike is not creditable under any circumstances, and Vicki writes people off all the time and doesn't check the facts.
He screams and yells at people who disagree with him all the time, and has resorted to physical violence at the drop of the hat.
Thats just who he is.

Every-time I got involved with badmins or anything related to server politics, I noticed vicki takes sides with the people she put in charge and refuses to let anyone provide their case. She listens to one side of the story of somebody she trusts and puts them on a pedestal. When viper has had an abundant history of having horrible admins.
She owned and runs the server and paid for it for years, it is her every right to do whatever she wants with her server. My disagreement of the server is moot because I don't contribute to it.

I personally don't have an opinion because I don't play besides one or two matches every once in awhile. And I refuse to believe in permanent anything, it's not right under any moral substance. We are playing a dead video game, why you people take this shit so serious I have no idea. Candles succumbing to peer pressure which still shocks me; has killed all of my confidence for this game, and ive turn into McGyver at this point.

Steam chat logs are not damnable evidence because you can simply copy and paste in notepad and re-write what people say. I've done this so many times, so I know how to play dirty when it comes to this kind of shit. Screenshots don't mean shit either. He needs to be here to defend himself, or this will blow over as another ego trip. Which will not sit right with anyone here and force people to loose even more confidence of whats present.

 

I approve of this derail, hardest evidence in the thread.

District should have all discussion muted by default, and also have benny hill playing in the background.

 

Also, here's some proof about the recordings:




These are just some of many emails with recordings Vicki received, and that includes the fact she deleted many outright.

I'd like to add that I, Terminator, Smitty and Spike caught him once trying to stealthily record our TS sessions as well. He offered no explanation for this whatsoever.

Thankfully logs speak for themselves.

I and Spike have organized weekly tests for a while now, and we haven't seen you yet.

There was also the problem that we couldn't test anything other than cosmetic/script changes because the build server is down, which is something I am fixing at the moment.

It's also been only since last Sunday that I and Tama have become the new leads.

Pretty much.