the 2 kinds of mortar kills I hate to love one being blowing the grens head after they fire a round that lands on ur face, the other being when the gren pops out of nowhere fires it at that rediculous down ward angle, mortar lands 1 yard away from em, I die he goes out happily as b4. It's definitely a cartoonish moment, but fun as hell to be a gren for that.
why would the ability to lock on with rpg be so horrible? Lock on at somewhere between lvl1 and lvl2 turret range albeit prolly closer to lvl1? Can still manually guide past that if one so wishes. Maybe if the "tracking systems" research enabled it? To much pipe dream b4 release eh?
I feel like i have to drop in on this thread because I play mowtar...i mean gren almost exclusively, if i can help it. I'm gonna just list points that I think are relevant, because otherwise i'll get way off track, I have had my halloween 'candy' y'know 1 - The mowtar shell kills infantry, yes, yes it does. would YOU survive a shell in the face? as far as i care, thats fine. I get pwned by most other classes if i meet them where i have no cover. 2 - the rocket guidance is sweeeeeet. please dont ever nerf it, if anything, make the guidance range unlimited. i say this because its hella hard to get a long range kill as it is... but oh so cool when you do get one. by this i mean just extend the range that you can guide a rocket to unlimited... yeah, sure, people say "why?" but i say "because!" -- translation: just because some people cant hit shit w a rocket, doesnt mean that no one can hit shit w a rocket. since i started this game long range rocket shots against moving targets were what i loved, so by now i am pretty good at hitting someone who is moving. all this would take is making the rocket NOT RELOAD while you fire. thats it. 3. grens get pwned. yes. they get pwned. after any armor but plain, it takes too many hits for a gren to be much more than a deterrent. so fine, let em be a deterrent (to tanks that is)... at that point in the game the gren's main usefulness is in mines, which are *perfect* right now. so bam, problem solved. I guess what im sayin is ... grens are fine. except for the rocket guidance, let us guide em across the whole damn map if we want! why not?
yeah no reloading while tracking would be a nice thing. LOL I bet Dee will be pissed at a conlusion like this..... "its all good..... except lets make the RPG guide all the way"
guiding all the way... really needed. so so SO irritating to be guiding a rocket, all that while you're velnerable to damage... and then for it to unguide and veer off at the last minute... I'm all for rockets running out of boost (after you've stopped guiding them) but running out of guide is just exteamly irritating. also: since when has the mortar been better against vehicles than the RPG. i mean honestly. I don't care if you're better than grapehead, give me 30 meters between me and you and I will kill you if you use mortar. it isn't difficult. dodging a guided rocket (sometimes) is. being able to move forward and then brake at the last minute throws most people off though.
So you're done then eh? Grenadier isn't overpowered. The only think that could need improving is making the mortar less effective against tanks and the rpg more effective against tanks, but in general the gren is fine. You don't see many grens at the top of the scorelist anyway, that should tell you something already.
How is this for a balance. Increase the rocket speed and give a better guidance -This will help make the rocket be the primary choice for vehicles. That and the fact that rockets do nothing to buildings. With this the rocket will be the primary choice for vehicles. Mortar should take a much longer delay before deploying to avoid around the corner jump shots. I don't see what would be wrong with a delay in using the mortar. Since you will be using the rpg against vehicles this won't really affect game play against tanks (which move fast). Grenadiers SHOULD NOT have the ability to take quick shots with a mortar. I'm not sure how they can jump around a corner and aim up a mortar as soon as they hit the ground.If you are using the mortar to kill infantry that is fine, as long as you are set up in a position and then start shelling.This should limit the point blank killing of infantry and some of those cheap shots they get. If they have skill and can pick you off from a distance, I see no problem with that. If you are dumb and turn a corner to a camping grenadier thats your own fault. Grenadier's have the ability to get the upgraded pistols for a reason. They are good weapons if you know how to use them. On that note though, I really see no reason that a riflemen can get the upgraded pistol (if they still do). They already have a primary infantry killing weapon. If we were to remove the secondary pistol from riflemen, that would give a little more edge for grenadiers in infantry combat.
It would work, yes, but again i really would find the waiting period very annoying. Currently the rpg has a very limited amount of ammo, while the mortar has plenty. If it would be the other way around AND with the rpg being a little faster (or another advantage against tanks) you would use the rpg a lot more. If not because it's become more usefull, then at least because you've only got like 8 mortar shells (16 with upgrade) and you need those against infantry.
but isn't the whole jumping around the corner and mortaring a lot of fun? I mean the mortar is definitely a signature of Empires mod. I don't play gren all the time but when I do, that is one thing I have enjoyed learning how to do. Its one of those WOW moments.
Those changes seem reasonable. Being able to quick/snap shoot with the mortar makes it far too easy to use at any ranges against infantry. I don't see how adding a second or two delay is going to do make grenadiers a useless class.
So how about adding more rockets to the grenadier class and taking away some of the mortar shells? With the new system of design stated here, the mortar would be more for taking out buildings/long range infantry suppression. I wouldn't even mind taking away mortar ammo, just giving the grenadier more. More RPG Ammo Faster RPGS and better tracking Heavy delay on mortar firing Comments on the proposed ideas?
if there is a delay then it needs to be well under a second, or it'll be a real pain in the neck. A tiny delay would make it impossible to jump out effectively - any more would be ott. personally, I've not been so annoyed by being on the receiving end that I want to stop the jumping around corners thing. but the rpg needs something to make it worthwhile, if the mortar needs toning down to keep the class level then maybe, but so long as it doesnt stop it being fun.
I think swamprat is right If you really want to add a time delay, then please don't let it take more than a second. I'm already dying of frustration when i get killed by a pistol from 60 meters away because i'm reloading that mortar, which - in battle and being under fire - seems to take forever and ever. If possible don't even add the delay, please. I think increasing the rpg speed, giving the gren more rpg rounds, and only give the mortar like 6 shells would solve nearly all the problems people seem to have with the gren already. 1) rpg is more usefull 2) mortar is still effective, and it's fun to jump around a corner which you still can do, however you have limited mortar shells so people will more likely start running around carrying their pistol in small areas. Mortar shells will become more valuable, and since a pistol isn't effective from a great distance, people will learn to use their mortar shells to take out infantry from a distance only. 3) because of this people will use the rpg as the primairy weapon against tanks. And it's only a small change, so if people really want to see something changed it can be implemented easily.
Its going to have to be more than a second because anything under a second you can still shoot it off pretty quick. You don't have to be set to reload the mortar. Sit, Wait a few seconds, Fire, cover, reload, repeat
given that from 50 meters a rifleman or scout can and with even REASONABLE skill WILL kill you if you sit still for one second, that will not just nerf but KILL the grenadier class. I don't think you realise how long one second is, ESPECIALLY if you have to sit still. for example, before krenzo changed it to .1 second, the punishment for firing mortar when not ducked was .5 seconds. 4/5 if this happened i would die. I'm not inventing this, that is exactly what happened time after time. and this was WITH the ability to jump, sprint and dodge like a crazy flaming midget. honestly I don't think this discussion is ever going to get to a point where everyone agrees on a solution, because we all have different experiences of the mortar. my experience is that mortar users get beasted by gun users of the same skill level. for me that means that no balancing needs doing. infact I remember many MANY times when all through looking at the changes i have conciously thought to myself "the only one thing that is perfectly balanced right now is the grenadier class". i genuinely have had this thought several times. POV all depends on your experiences with the weapon.
Jumping around a corner shooting the mortar is popular exactly because people need to get behind cover while reloading the mortar, since it takes long enough for everyone that knows where you are to kill you before you can shoot again if you sitting still in the open. And that's with these settings. A rifleman will nearly always be able to kill a gren, unless maybe from a huge distance. As sandbag said, i would move to rifleman entirely and use sticky nades on everything, because i can't hit shit with rpg, and the mortar would've become an anti-building only weapon, and not even the most effective. As a possible alternative: Should a delay be used, detract the time of delay from the reload time. You would be able to shoot as slow (couldn't get myself to say fast) as now, but you wouldn't be able to jump around a corner and immediately fire. A second would still be a long time though, and something on the screen should make obvious that you can't shoot yet, or otherwise people would be confused. Still i have to keep voting for no delay. I know i would use gren less for sure, and i'm no hero with it already.
i'm tending to lean towards what sandbag is saying.... I struggle when i go gren, at least against infantry. Like I said before, my main complaint is not that the mortar isn't too powerful, it's just that the RPG is really not very useful.
