Get rid of mines - Everyone Hates Urethra Edition.

blah blah blah you have retard proof mines now (which is ridiculous)

nice sarcastic post hexi, not a troll, just sarcasm, i dig it

 

You're right. That's absolutely why level 3 turrets are unavailable on crossroads. OH WAIT

Let's be honest here. The majority of the early game is fought with infantry to infantry combat, with the occasional APC, and the majority of the late game is either heavy tank spam or a complete stomp by one team. If you were to nerf the grenadier anti-infantry abilities, he would thus be much less played. I started playing this game in 2.24 right when dig in was bugged to hell, and I know that hearing that riflemen could take mines, mortars, and rockets to the face and live was one of the major factors that steered me away from the grenadier as a valid class in general. Grenadier is simply not powerful enough against tanks as a whole for it to be used purely as an anti-vehicle class.

Also, thanks, Deadpool.

 

It's not even the fact that it makes grenadier good against infantry. It's the fact that it has no player to player interaction involved.

 

I'm sorry, but you have yet to give a satisfactory reason as to wherefore firing artillery across the map constitutes "player-to-player" interaction, or what would take the place of mines should they get removed.

 

Mine's aren't nearly as anti-infantry as you're claiming. Unless you have no peripheral vision and have your brightness and contrast set to almost zero, they're pretty damn easy to avoid.

But how about this. Show me a map where mines make a significant anti-infantry difference. And don't say district, escort or any other similar map, because Empires isn't built around those maps. Show me how mines are significantly overpowered on most commander maps.

And even then, I bet for every example you come up with I can show you one of three foolproof methods for dealing with them. One is having a gren with defusal in your second seat. Two is being a gren. And three is being a revive engineer and reviving a guy who acts as a minesweeper. Mines are absolutely powerless against basic teamwork.

 

Why do we need grens in early infantry combat? Scouts aren't relevant in every aspect of empires combat, why should gren be different?

And we've all talked at length on how to make the gren a more relevant anti vehicle class for the entire round. One popular solution was to rig the damages so that a gren could effectively kill any class of tank in the same (or similar) number of shots. This isn't a technical problem. Making the gren an anti infantry class is a design choice.

 

Crossroads gg.

Edit:

The problem making it such that grens could kill any class of tank in a similar number of shots is that it would either overpower tanks in the early game or overpower grenadiers in the late game.

The difference between the use of a scout as anti infantry and the use of a grenadier lies in their "primary" anti-infantry weapons. The mortar is easy to dodge at long range, has one shot, and has a high skill ceiling. However, at far ranges, the scout rifle has no real infantry counter, such that if someone were to buff the scout rifle, some maps such as, say, dustorm or cyclopean, would become more and more unplayable.

 

I've spent this entire time saying I don't think mines are OP, I just think they aren't fun and don't bring anything positive to the game. All I can do is name reasons why I don't like mines but you guys have yet to give me a reason why mines actually make the game better.

 

If you're a blind motherfucker. I play Crossroads as gren with speed, melee, health and only then do I bother getting defusal. It's damn rare for me to get blown up by mines.

Mines provide area denial tactics; mines can be used to encourage teamwork; mines are one of two infantry weapons that can effectively destroy tanks end-game; mines force people to stay alert; mines can provide protection during a retreat; mines can be used to blow up a vehicle and deny an enemy their VF. All of these things are positives if you're the one using them. From the perspective of the person on the receiving end, these are all negatives, but following that reasoning anything that kills me is nothing but negative.

If we're removing things based off how much positives they bring to the game, then remove the HMG, scunt rifle and arty too. As far as I'm concerned, none of those things contribute anything positive to the game.

 

you guys have no idea what gren is about

broadstrokes:

best squad lead in engi heavy squad
artillery strikes break stalemates in crucial early game infantry battles
area denial (read: mines)
badass leadership skills and gamesense
killing that apc before it gets behind you
many many map specific tricks


i could go on but the gist is, i dont think there are too many decent grens actually speaking here

 

Well, you're a better player than most people. I'm just saying, I can get a ton of mine kills on crossroads.

 

Mines are a real big issue especially for people like me who need to use reading glasses, and colorblind. I have an issue with the color red, so anything red turns into a yellowish brown. The NF mines are hard to spot depending on the map

I don't think they should be removed though. Perhaps putting down a 4 mine limit instead of 8 would seem to be a better choice because mine spam has always been a cheap exploit, and a common tool for griefing.

By taking it down to 4 mines, it will make it harder for people to use them for nefarious deeds, and it would require a buddy to do maximize the effect.

Grens are this way because people cant always afford tanks, a team with not very much funds can defend against tank spam. I will agree the mortar instant killing people isn't very much fair sense it has area damage, and I don't like weapons that just instant kill you. But that's me.

Perhaps making grens choose between a rocket or a mortar would balance things out.

 

i just had the worst night out in my life and i come back and there is a 4 page topic on removing mines

suck my cock

 

Haters hating on mines cause y'all cant fucking open your eyes and look at the ground and fucking multitask.

 

Just because there exists a strategy against some mechanic does not mean that the mechanic isn't overpowered. Every mechanic, no matter how OP, has a counter. And as you get very good at the game (and all of you are good at this game), these counters become nigh effortless. You can get used to overpowered mechanics.

What about level 3 turrets on District? Those are presumed to be overpowered, so they are not allowed. But there is a laundry list of counter strategies to upgraded turrets:

• seismic nade spam
• explosive nade spam
• mortar spam
• launcher spam
• scout sab

So every class can do something to counter upgraded turrets. Granted, riflemen and grens might need an ammo box and scout sabs might need a coordinated rush from the rest of the team, but that's teamwork (as per bolded Candles).

But guess what? Upgraded turrets are still OP. Overpowered does not mean that there is no counter strategy, because there is always a counter strategy to every mechanic. And just as important, if the counter strategy requires teamwork, that does not make it a good strategy to require in the game.

So just because you can jump over mines or nade spam a lvl3, they can still be OP.

Finally, I must admit that this does not mean that mines are OP, but it means that your tired whining does not make them not-overpowered.

I think he could be defining player-to-player interaction by the amount of time ago an enemy directly did something that caused you to die. For example, an arty driver clicked mouse1 seconds before you blew up. But with mines, this time is a much more varied random variable that is heavily weighted at many seconds (or even a few minutes) ago. The arbitrary line differentiating them lies somewhere between the 1-2 sec arty interaction and the frequently 30+ sec mine interaction.

Are you trolling? I have trouble seeing mines sometimes when I'm driving, but I didn't think people literally had a reasonable excuse to not see mines.

Yes, that is a potential problem. But you're just swinging us across the opposite end of the spectrum from where we are now. I think there exists a happy medium between the extremes where a team with heavies can conquer a gren-defended base, but a team of LTs or meds cannot. In that case, upgrading your tanks is just the thing that lets you win. That's kind of the point.

But more importantly, I think we can get to that happy medium much easier than with the wages algorithm (as an example). Comparably, we're only tinkering with a few variables by changing the number of hits to kill an LT, Med, or Heavy. So not only does the happy medium exist, but it's very possible that we could easily get could to it.

I think you misinterpreted my comment. I meant to point out that the scout is currently absent from early infantry combat and we're all ok with that. Conversely, everyone is trying to make sure the gren still fits into early infantry combat, but I see no problem with the gren sitting that part of the game out just like the scout. The gren's mortar may be more compatible with the anti-infantry role, so it could be an anti-infantry class, but you have not demonstrated why it should be an anti-infantry class.

As it stands now, fielding a gren is an arbitrage choice. You can hold the line against infantry and take down impending APCs. Empires is a game that revolves around choices that can yield advantages or disadvantages based on your opponent's choices. Assuming that a team has a skillful gren, using him is a risk-less choice that always yields an advantage.

So not only can you not demonstrate why the gren should be allowed to excel at anti-infantry, but I can point out a reason for why it shouldn't be allowed to excel at anti-infantry.

EDIT Oh no, I did it again. My long post means that I'm done with this thread. This argument is about a deeply held pillar of Empires and it will only end in hurt feelings. I hope everyone had a great new years!

 

teef is fucking trlling, obviously, otherwise to bad for you teef

 

Red-Green Color Blindness is a thing. It's the most common kind of color blindness.

 

I have to weigh in on this.

Mines are easily countered with just 2 engineers, both with revive. Rifleman and engi with revive, scout and engi with revive.

Or gren with defusal.

Point is, mines are a part of empires, so if you don't like them, find an engineer buddy and go mine sweeping.

 

Oh yes I love mechanics that force me to feed points into the other team with a buddy, or play defusal. And any map with a narrow area has mines be annoying that way (don't give me the bullshit that empires isn't designed that way, this applies to almost any com map with a resource cap flag also.)