Current, Future, and Eventual state of script_manifest

lolwut? I'm saying I'd like to talk to him over the weekend because as you pointed out, they're simple and you'd have to have downs syndrome not to be able to understand them... therefor someone who's never worked with scripts but has good ideas and/or the will to get it done is exactly what we need.

 

This thread reminds me of another one, that one that's been deleted. What was it again? Oh, yeah: "The mod is DEAD, and we're sorry about that and everything, but don't worry we'll be doing things our way now and it will be better! Trust us!"

It seems to me that the restart in development that will (hopefully) release 2.25 was a direct result of that thread. The community had been hopeful for a long time, only to find out that many of the developers had quit months ago and were only later telling everyone about it. The removal of community scripting, while certainly much less serious, is still another slap to the face.

I know that there will be problems with the scripting, and of course things won't be perfect. But all this speculation and these assumptions and doubts have to end. People don't want bug fixes and consistent experiences. People want to have fun. No matter how limited or buggy or whatever the script system is, if people can use it to have fun, then they will. Developers, you are not professionals. This is not a market product. This is something that you are doing to have fun, and to let others have fun.

I am through rewriting this last paragraph/sentence. This concluding paragraph was meant to talk about how the community is upset and it's been so long and yada yada and damn it I hate it when my writing skills freaking fail me.

So, yeah, not the best argument I've tried to make. *sigh*

 

What are you on about? Why would default scripts have anything to do with custom made scripts? What I think is selfish is not letting anyone except this team of individuals decide how to play this game when going on past experience it hasn't done a whole lot of good.

No?

 

Based on the current pace of development and releases, I am very uncomfortable having no idea how long I will have to bear the latest iteration of Empires.

 

You are thinking of the exact same thing, but you're thinking more of the positives than the negatives.

Right now, you're focusing more on the fact you need to have a platform just to have your scripts on.

Except:

Any change to the balance of the mod itself will not consider the custom scripts which will have all the scripters crying CHANGE THIS CHANGE THAT.

Instead of trying to separate and have individualism you need to work together not try to put your scripts as the best and say "well that's that".

I feel like every time I visit the scripting forum it's full of twats saying that something is wrong with the other persons' scripts yet of course their OWN scripts are perfect.

 

You can play the game however you want, but developers should develop it. That's not selfish, that's screening. I can understand past experience may have proven fruitless, I can't do anything about that. Keep in mind the alternative was for me not to step up and you'd have script support for a dead mod. You can have that by just launching a 1600's SVN build. Are you saying that devoting time I would rather spend with my daughter to make a game for others to play is selfish? Perhaps I want the "glory" of being a savior?

A valid concern.

Barring disaster over this weekend, 2 more weeks of 2.24d. Something sub-par but better than existing 2.24d scripts will be in 2.25 and they will need to last us 2-3 months, less if they are unspeakably bad.

 

Everyone in this thread should engrave this on their head.

Read this shit 500 times, until you've calmed down and perceive the message as it's meant to be.

 

open development, free time, spend time with daughter, score

 

How about we worry about a fun, balanced core game; then we can worry about scripting?

You can put the script manifest out, but if the default core script isn't balanced/fun, there's no point. Work with the hard code, and you can change a lot more than you can with just scripts.

As far as this script manifest is concerned, either way the wind blows is fine with me. I'll support what the devs are doing, because in the end, they are the ones making the game, and I am not.

Criticism will come after 2.25 is released. Capiche? Merci.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that OuNin probably doesn't give a damn.

 

Yeah, real life issues aren't exactly an excuse, not that I appreciate the sentiment to improving the mod, I'm just saying that deciding to discontinue a feature to which a few of us have been waiting for in exchange for closed development /is/ selfish.

Some people have good ideas, yes. Some scripts have disadvantages, others have advantages. About 6 months ago Trickster and I were made a promise for code support for certain features that have never materialised. It's not even that difficult but every single developer that has come along has refused to unlock an open development platform.

The negatives to an open development platform:
- The dev team has no say in how servers run the game.

That is it. There is no change when you release a new version, you're only expanding on the layout you already have unless you really make a hacky attempt of coding. Your example of RPG falloff - how does this affect current scripts. Coded correctly future updates will have no effect on current scripts, this comes purely down to implementation which is not a point of argument.

I am in total disagreement with the discontinuation of developing a script manifest, it should be first priority. This mod is purely community driven, yet every developer has wanted to control it themselves. Open development will not dissect the community, there are enough permanent players here to play whatever the outcome.

Maybe I'm just an open development lover and I'm being obtuse. I just don't see the point in keeping development for a long term major issue behind closed doors.

 

There's like...no way we can build any kind of decent community with these kinds of people around - in the heart of development.

There's something wrong when the trolls are part of the mod, and when about 3/10 people in the close community actually have any decency.

 

You can call it what you want, this is not "discontinue a feature to which a few of us have been waiting for in exchange for closed development". This is suspending a flawed feature which a few people have been waiting for in exchange for active development. Close, but mine is right, and significantly different.

"About 6 months ago Trickster and I were made a promise for code support for certain features that have never materialised"
Okay, sorry but I'm not going to hold true on other peoples promises unless I agree with the decisions myself. This decision was not come to lightly, but no amount of complaining or pleading will change it now... discussions were had, points were made, and this is where we came out.

"every single developer that has come along has refused to unlock an open development platform."
LOL why do you suppose that would be? Venture a guess that maybe it sounds like a good idea when you're on the outside, then you get into the code and realise how nasty it all gets?

"Your example of RPG falloff - how does this affect current scripts. Coded correctly future updates will have no effect on current scripts, this comes purely down to implementation which is not a point of argument."
Okay... I said it would either break scripts or cause developers to have to work around everything... either way slowing development. In this example it would be the latter, it would be a falloff variable in scripts, but that wouldn't help any of the existing scripts, so why would a dev bother to code that in knowing 100% that no existing scripts would be using it? What, we just make features then post here and say "Hey guys, we made this thing, if you want to use it go ahead, here's the line you'll want in your script files. Hope you're all having fun while we just act as slaves to the scripters. Let us know if there's anything else we can add for you because you all decided you want to do it but won't learn to program" No, if we made RPG falloff the only way to get it in game (without official scripts) is to hard code it, we would code the falloff and it would break the balance achieved on scripts that worked around RPG sniping (by way of reduced damage for example).

You are definately being obtuse. Why should I spend a single second coding a feature that I then have to convence random scripters to use? On the one hand you could say "if it's worth a damn they'd love to have it" but instead what will happen is "our scripts are fine like this, it'd take too much work to add this fix and rebalance everything. People are used to it the way it is, but thanks for putting 100 man hours into adding it."

Again I say, if you want a broken ass script_manifest and no future updates, get an SVN revision and have at. With script_manifest in the mod would have ceased development (due to lack of purpose) and you would have more or less what is already available.

 

I have been honest, script_manifest as a specific feature has been removed from the source code, and the modability concept it appeared to provide will be developed throughout the next releases. As stated before I have outlined a plan to do more than what script_manifest was capable of, and without the shortcomings.

"Suspended feature" means not to hold your breath, I don't see how I could be coming across as dishonest.

 

Spawwn is trying to build something far more feature complete then what I did. I added the script manifest as an effort to keep the mod alive after the devs got bored of developing it (which was happening rapidly). It was fairly hacked in, and I had no real way of distributing the scripts (I knew .res files worked, but that was hacky). Spawwn is removing my code and releasing 2.25, then adding in something that would work better later.

 

Hmm ok. Seems like I misinterpreted a little with the actual plans.So what exactly are the actual plans after 2.25? I've heard you wanted to improve the code and clean up the hacky mess. What happens then? Are you for modability where servers can control what scripts they use? Are you going to support 3rd party scripters to distribute their own packages?

Suspension of a feature still counts as a discontinued feature unless you have a plan for it, to which is not mentioned anywhere.

 

You know, I've been wondering for a while as to why soundspawn, a relative newcomer to both to the development team and empires, suddenly seems to be in a position where he can call the shots on empires development. While I can understand and support the addition of new talent to the dev team, not a particular fan of that new talent leading it.

I'm also somewhat concerned by the distinct lack of information as to what soundspawn actually has planned, since you'll notice if you read his posts carefully he doesn't really commit to anything beyond getting rid of the script manifest. Aside from BSID, who seem very well informed as to the motives and actions of soundspawn as my conversation with RKB proves, the community at large is in the dark as to the future of Empires, with rumours such as soundspawn intending to encrypt the scripts in the next release persisting. I can understand BSID being more in the know than the rest of the community, but really, clan cameraderie and all that shit doesn't really apply when you are lead developer and you have an obligation to tell us what the hell you've got in mind and commit to it.

Quite honestly, this whole situation feels like a hijack, one which is going to end up crashing into a skyscraper and ruining everyones day.

By the way, if you are recruiting scripters, I wouldn't mind signing up regardless of the current circumstances. I can script competently, and I'm perfectly capable when it comes to designing gameplay. As a bonus, I can map reasonably well.

I would also suggest chatting with trickster and deif about their scripts, as their scriptset was very promising, and would be highly applicable to empires in the short term and long term.

 

Encrypting the scripts is not his decision, there has been talk as to wether the default scripts should be encrypted to allow servers tags to be used to show that it's using the default scripts.
Now, i don't like clans getting a foot in the door either, but if we're going to reject people based on who they're playing with, then i don't think we'd have that many people to choose from to begin with.

 

After 2.25, one of the plans is to include features that allow servers to run custom scripts. Although it technically can be done right now (by way of manually copying files, or servers using discrete values) we are setting goals to make it easier, more transparent, and prevent exploits. As you will notice in my reply to Omneh as well (below) I talk with fellow developers before making such an announcement, and the same applies here... I will hash out the details before I announce specifically what we're doing. This is to prevent "but you promised", and yes, at the expense of knowing a day or two sooner. I know not a better way to make decisions as a group.

All I could say at the time (I believe it was posted somewhere around page three) was that we are at the drawing board because we're starting fresh. I have outlined 5 goals that we should meet with our customization support, and once we as developers are in agreement I will release what we came up with.

Script_manifest, as a single feature, as in "set this variable to choose which script folder you want" has been removed and may (don't know yet, read above paragraph) never be re-implemented. The ability it gave (custom scripts, different scripts upon mapchange, etc) is all within the goals I have outlined, so functionally we lose nothing except the problems script_manifest would have caused. With that said, I have talked with Brutos relatively in depth about the modability going forward, and it sounds like we would both like at least the first milestone in to the version following 2.25... 2-4 months from now.

If you've read my responses to others, you may notice I tend to go right down the quote, I feel compelled to go out of turn here... I need to start by saying, "I do not have a obligation to tell 'us' what the hell I've got in mind". I really don't. The main reason I don't is because if I say "Hey I've got submarines in mind" some jackass will be quoting me on it saying "but devs promizd". I vet my announcements through friends AND fellow developers, so until that process is complete not only do I lack obligation to tell you my thoughts, I have a responsibility to not tell you. No offense intended.

So now, I've been a part of the community for about a year, 1/4 of the mods life. That makes me new I suppose and I'm fine with that. I've been a dev for this project for about a month now. That makes me new as well. The thing you missed that probably is leading to confusion is I'm qualified. I'm not some 14 year old kid who wants to "learn to program an MMO", this is not a platform for me to learn to program on (no offense to any developers where this was the case). I have 15 years direct C++ experience, I program (primarily in php) as part of my job. I'm a branch manager in trade, and not at McDonald's, at a $340,000,000/year gross sales company (my branch only pulls in about $1,300,000/month but we're strictly production so our margins are actually the highest). So I know how to coordinate a team, I know how to inspire people, I am always willing to do the work myself if no one else has the time/energy/motivation, and I'm not afraid of getting in the trenches with those around me.

In this community I am young. In this development team I am young. In this field I am very old. I may appear to be in a position of calling shots, but I'm not just yelling out what "I'm" going to do and flipping off any who disagree. The things I announce have already been talked about enough that my fellow developers are at the very least accepting of the direction. Did you notice that Kylegar and Brutos, the two most excited about script_manifest (for devs) have both commented saying "it wasn't good, it wasn't complete, the ideas we have now will be better". I didn't hack their accounts, I talked to them. We, as a team, have made this decision, I merely announced it.

I can't commit to anything right now because, as aforementioned, I clear my announcements with many people before proceeding. If I can't convince them, I don't expect to convince an entire community and therefor it shouldn't be done. On the one hand it's happening behind closed doors, on the other it's actually happening. I would think that's a fresh breath of air. Once I can make additional announcements, I will.

I can say I am against encrypting scripts. Too easy to hack, with no tangible reward that I see. I am fairly confident those who had ideas about encryption were throwing it out there as possible solutions to address specific problems, but I don't see us going through that work at any point in the future, we have alternate ideas that will work without encryption, and I'm fairly certain we will go in one of those alternate directions.

BSID members tend to be more informed not because they are BSID, but because they are my friends, my advisers, my historians. They can talk to me in TS any time we're both on, and we get along so the discussions/debates remain constructive, getting more work done in less time. They are not the only ones who I confide in, and it's not every BSID member that knows every detail. At any rate that part is unimportant, my friends know more about me than a stranger, as it should be. My friends know more about what I'm doing/planning than a stranger, also as it should be. If you want to know more, perhaps you should be more friendly. That's how it works, and that's how it's going to work.

 

Okay.

Either you need some way to make, if necessary, weekly changes to the scripts, or you need some way for people to change the scripts and keep them uniform.

My biggest love of steamworks is that the game can be updated automatically from a central location, and possibly allow the game to be updated on a daily basis if need be to allow for active development of balance.

On another point, if you are recruiting scripters, it would be better to recruit the custom scripters who have already put forth the effort to rewrite the scripts without making any horrendous changes and have already gotten them on a server.

but banning them could help the mod development as well, you never know.

Pickled can be an ass, but his understanding of the game mechanics and how to adjust them to help with the balance is almost unparalleled.

Between the two, I would rather see pickled as the leader of a scripting team, and have him set the direction for scripts, then let him recruit people to write scripts for him, as actually writing the scripts is easy as hell.