A complete Overhaul of the Research Tree

People often say we need better weapons, armor, medium tanks. When you think about it, it might be more sense, to completely reorganize the research tree. Look at the current version:



Some things are strange... e.g. research "Explosive Tipped Bullets" (30 sec). Before I have to research "Improved Flagration Compounds" (60 sec). Why not directly set "Explosive..." to 90 sec? And if you think more and more about it, you may come to the result to kick out all grey stuff! I mean the story of research is nice (Biology, Chemistry etc. it is like Sid Meyers Civilization) but there are too many clicks to do... it is not well structured. And if you need better armor, I think also vets don't remember where to find these technologies" exactly.

So I designed a new research tree:



We have four research paths:
- Weapons
- Chassis
- Engines
- Armor

Everthing you need... well there is A LOT balancing to do (research time) but this is just an idea, to make the research tree more intuitive.

 

Oh well, the turrets are missing... you can rename "chassis" to "designs" and add the following path to it "Turrets lvl. 2" --> "Turrets lvl. 3"

 

Don't tempt me. I'm weak willed.

 

Trickster, I remember us discussing something like this. Got a link to the thread?

 

Regarding the part about splitting research in such a way (Why have both Heavies and Advanced Chassis?), it actually helps a lot. Say you want to research heavies, so you start Advanced Chassis. It almosts finishes, when you suddenly need to do research something else (Perhaps they got rails so you need absorbent). If we merged them together, you'd either have to cancel and have wasted 120 seconds, or wait 120 more seconds to finish heavies. Two minutes of a team getting rail-raped can mean a lot, and chances are it'd go on longer than that. By not merging them together, you can imagine it as being given a checkpoint halfway through researching heavies instead of having to do it all at once.

In certain cases, they're caused by remnants of old research trees, where there might've been something planned to go there or something that was once there was taken out.

Regarding restructuring the tree entirely, it certainly has a benefit of making things more direct-upgrades, but Empires oftentimes doesn't have direct upgrades. For example, Nukes are not the end-all of missiles because of their heat and cycle time. Their burst damage rapes anything that isn't a heavy, but against another heavy, they quickly lose a lot of their value. HE is a sidegrade to ER, not an upgrade. It has less DPS but more explosive radius, making it anti-infantry and less anti-tank.

 

5 x nukes can flip heavys

 

Think about it... It's

- e a s y
- s i m p l e
- t r a n s p a r e n t
- u s e r - f r i e n d l y

 

It's...not good. I looked at it originally and thought you'd just straight separated everything else, but you've done some other monkey business that's pretty silly.

Long and short of it though, is that although the current research tree could be reimagined in to many different forms, that's simply the most boring and lame concept I've ever seen. I'd rather you just remove research and automate it, because that's about as fun.

You've pretty much removed all strategy from the research tree, and I bet you can't even see why I'd say that.

 

Well Ikalx, you comment is very emotional. It would be nice, if you explain your arguments, post pros and cons so I can improve the concept.

Hmm... yeah, that's a point. Maybe you can introduce some further steps, like the following:



An "upgrade system" is a part of balancing. Furthermore, you can add or remove steps to avoid that "upgrade system".

 

An upgrade system is a part of balancing only if we want it to be a part of balancing. Direct upgrades aren't something that are exactly wanted because they lead to a lack of diversity of research. If weapon A is a direct upgrade to weapon B, why bother using weapon B once you have weapon A? A progressive research system that groups weapons, armor and engines together implies that the later should replace the earlier.

 

I just remembered who worked on a tiered system like this: Drag. Looked through his thread history, and found these threads:

http://forums.empiresmod.com/showthread.php?t=8818

http://forums.empiresmod.com/showthread.php?t=8730

http://forums.empiresmod.com/showthread.php?t=9507

The link's dead, though. I'll see if I can find a backup of the files. I advise others to do the same.

 

Yes, currently in the new overhaul there is only a problem in the weapon path (maybe also in armor). As I mentioned, you can delete/introduce steps, change the order to avoid the progressive system. There are a lot of options. Anyway, who is using standard cannons, when other weapons are researched? Indirectly, we already have a progressive system - but not a consistent one.

I played so much games in my life... Every brilliant game balanced between a progressive and diversity research system. I think, there is no either/or. There is a huge AND.

 

Not sure but I remember hating it with a passion. Nothing has changed in that respect, the same applies to this. I'd be fucking distraught if research went in this direction.

 

True, but it's almost like I'd have to explain the entirety of the research tree. Not just the concept or the discrete objects but the way that each part affects each other.

I'm starting to get the feeling that unless I actually draw out my concept people aren't going to get that we can have a little of both worlds.

 

I miss some discussion here... it would be nice, if one could explain the current research tree concept. (By the way, I have no access to Beerdude26s links)

 

Hmm ok... can you give me two examples for a research strategy? I mean, which research order/sequence will you choose from early to mid to late game phase?

 

Physics, reflective, fission.

Great heavy early-game armor and a speedy engine for apcs and lights.

Mechanical, Mediums, extended range.

Rush to mediums and then pick up the 2 slot cannon that you uncovered earlier.

Biology, bio ML.

Solid anti tank missile.

Heavies, composite armor.

Get big tanks and get a suitable armor.

Chemistry, advanced coolant, nukes, turrets, arty, etc

Fill in the gaps on your tanks and then get some super late game stuff.

Notice that I get through the entire early game without opening more than two trees, but after the endgame, I open them all because I couldn't care less. That's the kind of thing that people are talking about.

EDIT I used the word heavy in the beginning to describe armor weight, not the tank variety.

 

My current catch-all research path is Reflective > Fission > Heavy Cal > ER > Mediums > Bio ML > Heavies. Considering Improved Standard cannon, I might just cut the ER part out though, depending on where we go with that. I used to also include Gas Turbine in that outfit until it got moved to Advanced Machining.