[2.25] Rpg

I don't think that's quite true, they should be able to stall any group of tanks, but not kill them, they can force the tanks to keep their distance because they keep shooting them, and should need shelling out of their position or rushing with infantry, this is a game about tanks after all so you should need tanks to beat enemy tanks, the problem is you don't really have a fast assault vehicle for infantry, I think if you buff grens you might need heavy APCs with more armor and weight capacity, or at least add in the ability to heavily armor the front of the APC up so it can be used to rush (but not neccesarily stay alive once it has) Or you could get rid of the mortar or move it to another class, as grens on a rooftop are frigging lethal with the mortar to rushing infantry. I'd prefer it if packing many grens made you a bit vulnerable to infantry otherwise fortified grens become a bit unshiftable unless you use arty.

 

There is no damage value that will balance the RPG. The difference between an absorbent light and a comp heavy is just too huge, not even counting how lethal 50 cal and upgraded cannons are. If we want grens to be useful all game without dominating early tanks then grenadiers have to scale somehow, through research or skills or chassis based damage or whatever.

 

Your acting like the tanks are just gonna sit around and get hammered by RPG's.. All you need is a cannon or MG to keep them from guiding them at you.. Plus most skilled drivers are engineers and can drop walls for cover and hop out and repair all layers of armor in seconds or have a team mate do it.. Not to mention they could have rifleman insta sniping all the grens..

The apc's were nerfed because people(hsm) would rush with in the first minute of a game and win it.. Now that spawns don't need to be researched anymore this would be a horrible idea.. I've seen many apc's with .50 cal hide behind walls and instantly gun down grens and if they get hit they hop out and repair..

The mowtar should not be removed(most retarded suggestion ever) or moved to another class. What maps have roofs where grens can get on and dominate all infantry? If they can get up there so can a rifleman and he will mow them down.. Also if a team has more grens then they aren't building much. There is plenty of downsides to having too many grens.. Killing tanks will not win a game.. Getting refinery's and research will..

I personally think upped rpg research is stupid. Just make them able to hit tanks and make the mowtar deadly agian. viola fixed class..

 

Canyon cyclopean (lots) duststorm crossroads (although the cover helps) slaughtered and quite a lot of custom maps off the top of my head, the point is nobody really does it at the moment because grens are useless but if you make them capable AT units then people will start doing it because they can actually make a big difference. If you could rocket snipe things reliably and dumbfire spam at close range from an elevated point you would, or at least you would if you had any sense.

The only machinegun that would work to prevent this is 50 cal, std mg lacks precision and power and ammo over long range against infantry in cover and the chainguns suck against infantry in cover, the 50 cal is a broken-ass weapon which shouldn't be in the game, it's the one remaining instant-kill from any range gun and it is entirely unneccesary in general use, and is entirely stupid as a proposed solution to this problem.

But if you have a team of capable anti tank dudes who can also hold off infantry with their piss-easy to use mortars (they are piss easy to use from any sort of elevation) and you'll end up with something you can't attack properly with either tanks or infantry and it's made of free infantry and engineer walls. That is the primary issue I have, you cannot make the rpg capable and the mortar effective and easy because then the other classes become entirely inferior, unless you're going to give the rifleman deadly long range weapons to kill the elevated grens without rushing the peak under a hail of mortar fire (god knows what it will be like if you actually buff the mortar...) and if you do that, congratulations the game is now sniper wars.

 

You don't get res from camping roofs and shooting down at infantry.. I think your underestimating the power and how quick rifles kill. Any class or weapon is good when attacking from "roofs".. It's not just the mowtar. Most the time its only engineers on the roofs on crossroads. The rpg will only be capable in numbers and the mowtar will only reward people with lucky shots.. It's not like an awp. And my suggestion to improve it is not a huge difference. It mainly includes changing the riflemans resistance and fixing the dig-in bug.

It's not going to make any infantry inferior.. Rifleman will be able to kill infantry easier and tanks with some skill/luck.. Grens will be able to kill tanks easier and infantry with some skill/luck.

It's not some mystery how the game will be if grens can kill tanks and infantry it will be how it use to be.. Remember every tanks armor and speed was buffed and nothing for the gren changed. That's when people stopped being gren. Also at that time rifles were buffed and they were given a resistance to the mowtar so a direct headshot from it would only do 85 damage.. That's bull shit.. Sticky nades fuck tanks up but you have to be skilled or lucky to get them on a tank.. If a skilled tank driver see's you hes not gonna let you sticky him its the same concept with the mowtar a skilled player will know how to dodge it.

 

how bout ranks give a buff to the rpg? just throwing it out there, as Im not sure Ive seen it mentioned here yet. (before you say it's unintuitive/too complex for noobs, I think those tips or whatever they're called, the ones between maps, are way underutilized and a good place for these sorts of details.)

this is a way of scaling the rpg against time (per map = research time) and skill (pwnage).

Im sure this idea is cataclysmically flawed in some way my flawed human brain has neglected to set upon as yet, but what the hey, unleash the hounds.

 

I like that idea Deadpool.

 

Nah, ranks upgrading your weapons just makes the better people better.
But seriously, I read through all of Dubee's post, I don't think he can make a suggestion that doesn't involve buffing the only class he plays. And one, that by the sounds of him pointing out the flaws in the class, he isn't very good at playing either. And yes, I know "zomg Dubee is god with mowtar" etc, but honestly, I don't care, because you can be a perfect aim with a sniper rifle, and still be a shitty scout.

The simple thing is this. Dubee wants an instant kill mortar back purely becuase it's the weapon he uses, and he considers it to be the more difficult of all weapons to use. I will agree there.

But the simple thing is, you can't just take on rifleman head on like you used to, because that was simply retarded. A grenadier is anti-tank, not anti-infantry. If you want to take on a rifleman, use your fucking brain. So I'm an engineer, and I come across a rifleman. What do I do? I go for cover, or I drop a wall, or I throw a seismic out to kill his aim. I don't just engage him and expect to win, because I'm a better aim than he is. Because he's still using a far better weapon than me, at the cost of not being able to do half the shit I can do with engineer.

Same with Grenadier, I see a rifleman, I go for cover. I then lay a mine at the end of this cover if I can, I get out my mortar, or even RPG, take a shot, get back. If I've got targets/camera near, I'll know he's coming over and be ready with my pistol to finish him off. This is what is known as a Challenge. You may not be used to it, but funnily enough it requires factors like Skill. You seem to turn every thread even remotely related to grenadier (Notice the thread title is RPG, and I can only assume it's referring to the RPG weapon empires has which is supposed to blow up tanks. Not infantry.) into a cryfest about how the anti-infantry class is better at killing infantry than the anti-tank class. Crazy isn't it.

Now, let's get to the real problem. In my opinion, RPG is OVERPOWERED (Yes, Overpowered.) against plain armour early game. However, I feel even with RPG upgrades, besides absorbant, it's underpowered vs the late game armours. That and upgraded RPG is in a stupid place. Remember one thing. RPG is free. Tanks are not. Lategame tanks are expensive. RPG upgrade isn't.

Solution:

Move upgraded RPG/Advanced RPG to Mechanical.
Up the resistance of plain armour against it.
Nerf the resistance of non-plain armours against it.

All researched armours should have the same resistance against RPG in my opinion, because RPGs are free, and you shouldn't be researching against whether the enemy has good grenadiers or not. That isn't strategy, it's faggotry.

tl;dr

Dubee is using gren wrong, hence unqualified to give an opinion.

 

Buff plain armor against it, link RPG upgrades to chassis research and tone them down a little due to being much easier to get, and don't bother nerfing armor until you see how it works, I think it will be powerful enough without it.

 

Personally I really like this. I always thought gren should get a rank bonus increase, though number of mines placeable was usually the first thing to come to mind. This is a better alternative, though.

 

fair enough, to the first point I bolded - dont forget that players can and do earn points early on as engis then switch classes later, even 10 points giving say 10 damage bonus would help grens against researched armor, and if you DO have people on your team that get 40 points a game as gren then lucky you, that's how the cookie crumbles.

10 points - rpg does 115
20 points - rpg does 125
30 points - rpg does 135
40 points - rpg does 145

this does not seem like an extremely high advantage, when you are talking about reflective heavies by 40 points, does it?

also, could someone remind me of what the rpg research does to damage values? i forget, is it +20 and +45? i will edit the above to reflect that later.

To the second point, I agree, roffle vs gren fights are not impossible currently. I mean, we cant ignore the fact that any gren hoping to be effective had better have teammates nearby, or even a squad of his own (I love you hotel) - I won't get into why I think gren is nearly the best SL, maybe even tied with engis for that honour. we cant ignore that no man is an island in empires. In summation - mortar could do with a slight slight buff, I think we all know that, but lets not get carried away with hyperbole when discussing it's abilities or lack thereof.

To the third point, I like it, it seems like a viable solution, cause you have to go mech anway... combined with making the research cheaper, this could work - my only qualm with it, is that old argument about whether the comm has time/money for it. This would make more sense if there were other infantry upgrades in the research tree ...it seems like an orphan research atm.

regards. Deadfail.

 

I dislike having points give any bonuses that can compete with res. The game is supposed to focus on res; it's bad to threaten that.

If you want gren weapons to slowly increase over time, why not base it off of the total research-time done? Once you have 600 total seconds of research, your RPGs upgrade by one step. Once you have 1200 total seconds of research, they upgrade another step (these numbers are arbitrary, I didn't actually add up the seconds to see what time would be good.)

Alternatively: Upgrade the RPG for each new weapon you research (to a maximum of twice, to avoid people researching absurd amounts of weapons.) This ties it to weapon research in a logical fashion and lets players improve the RPG without falling behind on tanks. Note that anti-tank MGs would count, too, making death APCs + APC spawn more deadly.

 

ok king trickster... It's not about gren's taking on rifleman head on.. Its about being able to kill one that you have came up behind or had a jump on. Making a direct hit kill a rifleman with out a health upgrade does not make him good at anti infantry. Every other class can kill a rifleman he has the jump on. 9 mines and mowtars were the reason a lot of people stuck around to play this game before you even knew about it.

You basically will make everyone rifleman. Who in a pub is seriously gonna come across a rifleman and have time to drop walls throw siesmics and shoot back while ducking? He will be dead before he even brings up the wall.

I am agianst having any infantry research or buffing thru upgraded skills. I just think the class needs more reason for people to play it and back before all the rifleman and tank buffs(no gren buffs) there was more gren playing.. So think what you want(I'm a noob gren) but It's what I feel will fix this class.

edit: Also I don't only play as gren. It's just my favorite class because I think its the most fun and completley different from any other game I've played.. You need to play with me more if you think I am only good at using the mowtar. I know how to use the RPG both pistol 2's and the mines as well as anyone. And I'm not derailing my own thread.. If you actually read I'm pointing out that a better fix imo is more players with weaker RPG's and from knowing the past of empires that was achieved by a good anti infantry mowtar.. The rifleman will always be king at anti-inf, he will just instead of laying around sniping people all day also have to factor in that he needs to watch out for mowtar shells.

 

It's hardly completely different, it's just using the grenade launcher attachment from COD4 and no other guns.

Mines aren't difficult to use and the RPG isn't useful.

 

Rifleman have the best anti infantry weapons, the best anti tank weapon, and armor. Grens should have decent anti infantry capabilities because its fun and otherwise there is no reason to ever not go rifle/engi. Its more fun to have a mix of combat classes instead of just of just rifleman and their support.

Increase the mortar ROF and decrease damage so that 1 hit kills are impossible, but 2 hit kills happen faster and overall DPS goes up. Maybe up the splash a little. Lame instant kills are avoided, but the mortar still gets a needed buff.

 

dubee's points are valid, as are trickster's, but can anyone seriously say that in light of armor buffs, rifleman armor and accuracy buffs, the mortar doesnt need a slight buff to bring it back in line?

BUT - this thread is about RPGS

edit: yeah I see o_O agrees

 

You don't kill tanks in cod4, its not free and its not 64 people on a giant battlefield. Honestly I can go on and on about how empires is so much different and better than cod4. Mines have hot spots on maps that will get you kills often and the RPG was and will be useful if there are more grens.

The issue is if you make it so the RPG has better damage and there are more grens then you have tanks dieing instantly.. Now if you have more grens cause they have anti-inf qualitys too the weaker RPG will be fine because they add up.

 

Isn't this sort of situation the entire reason that the pistol 2s were created? To be able to kill infantry, riflemen included that you have the jump on?

Well in most of the battles I see you don't try to take on the riflemen if you are an engineer instead you drop walls and get you turret up or let your riflemen buddies deal with him. Even if you get the drop on him as an engineer there is no guarentee that you will kill him with your SMG before he turns around and kills you.

If you want to make the mortar better at taking out entrenched infantry then it can be balanced toward doing that but in that case it would not be a good weapon for firing on riflemen you have outflanked. As it is the mortar is a pretty poor weapon, as it is so fiddly to use most players will just use the RPG instead. Buffing it might encourage more of the veteran players to use it, but it will not ecourage many newer players to use it so most of the benefit will be wasted.

 

Yes but if you give grens one shot infantry weapons you don't need other combat classes.

Making the mortar one shot kill is not a slight buff, it's doubling its power, because now it takes one shot rather than two.

If you want to buff gren infantry abilities, give them an SMG or something, don't give them a gun which is better than the rifles at killing speed. You can do just about anything to the gren other than make them outclass the rifleman in infantry combat.

 

Make new gren weapons that can be swapped out for the mortar.