The only empty vehicles I have seen is jeeps, maybe but very very rarely a light tank that usually has been heavily damaged anyway. I think every vehicle in the game besides the command vehicle will start taking damage and explode if it stays empty long enough, I want to say it takes 5 minutes but I am probably wrong on the time. Again, the only times you can calc something to death if it is empty or stuck. I am not disagreeing that it is possible, I've done it too. I am just saying giving this to the other classes is really just a waste of time that will add nothing to gameplay. Not when they have so many better options. I'll be honest, I get annoyed sometimes when there is a tank and I can't kill because I have no ammo or forgot to switch to stickys. But so what, that is what the rest of the team is for. To cover up your weaknesses. AS ONE BOLD, STRONG, PROUD TEAM WE CAN ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING!!! Seriously though, as much as I want to have the ability to deal with any situation, empires is a team game and you shouldn't be able to do it all. If done right I wouldn't mind this. What's that? I can trade all my rifle ammo for be pistol 2 ammo? Sign me up. Though personally I am a big fan of grid based inventory tetris. Like RE4 or diablo, even old xcom.
I really wish this wouldn't have died in rpg's in favor of boring lists that slow things down and artificially pad out gameplay.
Except that two out of four classes kinda can? It's a different game. Granted we were going for the weight-based loadout when designing Cold Trap, but that requires a ground-up approach. Still wonder where all those design concepts went actually >.<
Foot in mouth. Still, it isn't like they can do everything very well. Grens can't build and engineers can't kill tanks.
I mean in a sense that it is very useful. Engineers can only kill tanks by building turrets. They have no way of direct damage like the other classes. If a tank just rolls up to them the most they can do is drop a wall and either try to build a turret real quick or just hope they go away. Given the time it takes to get one up and how little damage a lvl 1 does most engineers just hope the tank goes away. Grens can e-build, but it is so slow that no one really expects them to. I mean it takes a minute and 40 seconds to e-build a barracks by themselves. That is a long time to not come under attack.
Walk up behind tank drop a turret, walk in front drop camera, Then wall sides.....Calculator kill for the lols
yet its among the most hilarious things in empires :D my personal opinion is that every class should be able to avoid all threats - where avoiding could mean destroying, disabling or escaping - there should be no situation where you see it coming and your only choice is either wait to die or kill yourself. ofc im aware that it an ideal you probably never reach, but i also think its not that far off in empires.
To be honest, I've always thought of engineers as the 2nd most powerful anti-vehicle class. I guess that's mainly because I've been effective against vehicles every time I've played as engineer. I mean...you can shield yourself from damage, hit back, entrap the enemy, and often even destroy them. Compared to riflemen and scouts they have a better deal, unless you're talking about a tight map with lots of cover. Even then, they don't risk as much in order to do it. Grens are powerful, of course, but at least as engy you don't need to flail about jumping around in order to make sure you don't die while in combat. Anyway, do any of the weapons have falloff? I mean a decreased trajectory with distance, not decreased damage. Because it strikes me that things would be a lot more interesting if we could have that in game - and that even if it was just for the scout rifle, it'd be fixed. Also, does the scout having sticky stuns make more sense for gameplay? I think we haven't talked about this for a long time, and then only sparingly, because scouts by nature are like the rinky dink class with delay tactics and suchlike. But what is the reason for them having stuns? Is it so they can escape quickly? Is it only for the scenario that if the rifleman gets it you're putting a more powerful class against a CV, compared to a scout? Is it to make scouts less useful and only pester CV's? Because when I think about it, a rifleman is going to be near allied infantry much more than a scout, which would make stuns more of a useful weapon - one rifleman can now help to bring down four vehicles more easily than one, they just can't do it all themselves. On the other hand, scouts will be deep field, meaning that delaying a vehicle is more annoying than destructive. Compared to say, if a scout was in an enemy base and sees them roll out a heavy. They can't destroy that heavy with stuns (I don't think?), but they could take it out with regular stickies. Or are stuns mainly for if you sabotage a whole base then don't let the enemy commander get away? Sounds a bit wonky, imo. Something else, though this is very random and I'd just like some reasoned thoughts on it, what would a scout-like class with mines instead of saboutage (and no stickies) play like? Ruling out the gren entirely for a moment and just envisioning what role a class like that would fit. Not saying it's a good idea, just wondering what that would be like.
It wasn't that great. I assume you're referring to when I've said that 2.2 (in around 2009) had peashooters for weapons. It was really shitty. You just spent half your time dancing around your opponent spraying in his general direction. To be honest, the anti-infantry Gren players that we have today really came to prominence in that time. Before that, a rifleman would lance a gren off from miles away, but that just wasn't the case any more. Weapons are still not even close to being as strong as they used to be. The BEHR used to hit for 50 damage (100 headshot), with absolutely 0 falloff and no class except rifleman having any sort of resist to the bullets. NFAR had an insane RoF (empty mag in like 1 second) and hit for 40 damage. Compare that with 2.2, where most weapons hit for around 20 damage and had a lower RoF than ever (SMG2 was fucking horrendous, it was like 5 rounds a second), the combat was totally different. The only thing that stayed the same was the mortar, hence it became a lot more popular. Rather than a very very small handful of players (Commie, Skies, Sonecha) who used it before, it became something that even shitty players like myself put time into learning, just because it was that much more effective. That has been the case ever since then. A lot of the current Grens now even complain about Rifles being OP, even though the mortar is not only stronger than it used to be, but the weapons are still comparatively far weaker than they used to be when these same Grens had no problem with the power like 6 years ago. TL;DR Grens think Rifles are OP, Rifles think Grens are OP, both sides hate me either way.
the worst thing was when you approached someone from behind and he still could turn around and mow you down because he was rifle (also had something to do with digin) - if you have the initiative you should score the kill.
I miss being an engy in those days. I actually had an affinity for the weapons back then, now every time I pick them up, I can't use them. Heck, smg1 feels like a slightly fast pistol to me, for it to be effective. I should play more --- Edit: To make this somewhat more of a useful post, can I just ask why oh why oh why giving healing to the scout is anything but a good idea? After so much time I still don't understand. If you're worried about class overlap, there isn't really a reason to be. You could have the scout heal people at a default or even slightly slower engineer rate, while the engineer could use a sort of heal-over-time ability, using 50% of his ammo to give something like a 40 health boost with the rest being regen'd at 5hp/s, and with the upgrade having it use 25% of engy ammo. This would fit actually quite well, since whenever an engy is healing it's usually during the thick of battle and people are running around or moving away from him/her. I really want a good answer for this.
I just want to say that sticky stuns do 100 damage to vehicles, regular stickys do 150. Well supposedly they do, I was playing with HaschteWas a couple of days ago and I noticed that an apc with full plain armor died in one hit, even though it should have taken two. That could just be a weird thing with plain armor, I don't know. I always thought though that the reason for sticky stuns was two things. To prevent commander boomtanking, and simply give players a way to disable vehicles for a bit. Mainly that last one makes sense for scouts in that they can stun a vehicle and run away, it takes 10 seconds for the overheat to dissipate I think. Also with the way damage works and how close you need to use any type of sticky grenade I would always choose that raw damage and pretty good chance of outright killing it from a riflemans sticky grenade over the overheat. Though that is somewhat based on low pop games, where you kind of don't have players to make use of stuns. I personally feel like the current system works when it comes to infantry fighting tanks. Ikalx you should play more. Current games are quite a bit faster paced, you really can't trap tanks anymore because of how fast they accelerate. Depending on engine they can turn pretty fast too. I am not to sure by what you mean by smg1 is like a fast pistol, do you mean it just fires faster or you have to use like a pistol? In any case smg1 is so accurate if you are crouching or prone you can just hold the mouse button. Using smg2 at a distance is like rolling dice though in my opinion. About scouts with mines... not a good idea. It would just make 9 mines way easier, remember that hide also hides you from cameras, the radar, and turrets, all things the gren has to deal with and makes current ninjaing way harder. They would also just keep piling them in vfs, instagibbing those 1700 res heavies. Considering sabotage doesn't actually kill anything out right, I think this would be a bad tradeoff balance wise. That's my opinion anyway. If anyone seriously says that they are dumb. Edit:Giving scout heal isn't a terrible idea in my opinion. I do believe that the scout is suppose to get a few change though. Namely it's hide ability was suppose to be some time based skill where you could move, like tf2 spy. It was also suppose to get a shotgun, though I can't remember if that was suppose to replace the scout rifle or just be a fourth option. In any case I feel like it will end up being a class that is really suppose to do its job, of getting behind enemy lines and making a mess of things. With that in mind... I don't know maybe the heal would still be an ok idea. You could make it a perk. That thing about changing engy heal sounds kinda bad though, that is the same cost as a revive, plus you also have to think what it would mean if you could send players right back into the fight. Or maybe not, I mean getting heal upgrade would be worth it, and players would be stuck waiting for their health to reach max. The actual numbers might have to shift around a bit but that might work too.
It's okay the Engineers don't have a say there ergo the game can still continue after the nubs ragequit.
Sounds like they made it weak to stickies as a trade-off. New plain isn't quite as terrible as it used to be, I don't think. In the first case, the scout wouldn't be where the cv is booming, and it serves no purpose in the second case. I guess in a low pop game it's different, since everyone is kinda alone when dealing with a situation. Regarding trapping, it's a low population thing. With larger populations there are less safe areas for vehicles to dodge away to, and you often have a teammate to distract them. Me and smg1 is just nostalgia, I make no claims to that being accurate at all :p Scouts with mines, well forget about 9 mine, we've disabled that before and we can do it again. If you think about it without that, then how would it play out do you think? I know scouts were supposed to get a refraction shader, time-based hide, and a shotgun. They've been supposed to get that for a while, but until they do, it doesn't hurt to talk about their role. Heal as a perk does sound good, but since scouts usually take hide first, it'd take a while for them to get to healing, if they could even be bothered by that time, which makes perking it a little pointless. Costs for alternative heal are just ballpark. I usually put in an alternative function to round out the idea, just as an example. Engy regular heal takes quite a lot of ammo and time, so you need to factor that in. The hp/s regen could be anything, easily it could be 10hp/s, which would just mean 6s to get back to full. Examples are for example sake really. I don't play because empires is simply made for lots of people. The maps are big for running across, and since I die alot, that's what I'd mainly be doing. I also don't like the vehicles very much. Basically Empires takes a lot of effort to play and I've had so many years of putting my heart into it, that it basically became an abusive relationship - not with the actual game, but the players.
Plain armor is still bad, its kinda heavy for the health you get(40hp a plate). No, I remember smg1 being a death laser. That ain't nostalgia. Current smg1 is close, it just doesn't do such a ridiculous amount of damage at range. When I said to prevent cv boomtanking, usually there is an armory or a barracks to change class in, or they could just respawn in as a scout. A scouts actual location is irrelevant in those circumstances. About the second thing, I thinking mainly of how a scout could contribute to the team in case of tanks rushing in. I feel like stuns were given to the scout because they didn't want the class to be an antitank kind of thing, just increase that support role it has. Well kinda has. You can still technically nine mine by just dropping the mines under the cv then shooting the cv. That little bit of force is enough to move the cv and detonate the mines. I don't know how 9 mining was dealt with in the past, but I would imagine making it so mines couldn't explode other mines in the same vicinity rather hard. Or rather making a vehicle detonate just one mine in a group. Honestly if they did that I would think escort would become unwinnable for nf. For the argument though I'll just say...well beyond putting them in building entrances scout would actually be even more useless if you swapped mines for sabotage. If you took away grens mines to do this it just might be a fair trade off, but I really feel like that scout rifle has to go before you do that. Mines are best used on the frontlines, to prevent vehicles getting anywhere behind you. On heal as a perk, I would take it if it was available, plus you have to remember getting 10 points isn't hard at all. Personally I never get hide as a perk, I like getting speed upgrade and either accuracy upgrade for the smg2 or melee if I want maximum fun. Then again the only times I bother with scout is if I think I am playing on a stacked team and don't want to help so much or don't really care about winning, or more to the point I just get bored of trying. Playing a scout is just fun new way to play for me that still lets me kind of help my team. Healing doesn't that much time or charge, it takes 5 seconds and 25 charge points to go from 0 to 100. Still, if it did work like that it might be best if worked so that if the player gets hit while the regen is in effect it stops. Just so people can't simply rush around as soon as they get zapped. I simply feel that if you are low on health you need to slow down for a second. Knowing you should stay out of the fight til it finishes healing just sounds like how medical things should work. I know that pain of big empty maps. On the slightly bright side because there isn't so many players it is easier to get another tank or what have you. Or just spam jeeps everywhere. Or be the commander and always have a vehicle.( Who am I kidding, commanding low pop games sucks.)
When I talk about the smg's in the old days I'm referring to 1.8-2.12. The whole firing system was different back then, so it's pretty out of context. Do people actually run into an armoury and change class to scout so they can sticky stun a CV? I wouldn't have thought it waits around that long...unless it's boomtanking just outside the rax for some obscure reason... Isn't that where the scout is supposed to be :confused: You would take the perk, but I'm not sure how many people play scout if they aren't lolling about or winning. Only newbies and noobs I'm sure. Which means they wouldn't take that kind of perk because they think it's a sniper class. You might be right about the charge, the last time I really checked values for anything it was building. Which is still faster if you let all your ammo regen before resuming. I'm not really sure you're with a lot of Empires players there. Most people would have complained about NOT being able to rush around after they get healed :p Actually, with more players I've never had a problem getting a tank. That's most because wages pay for themselves when you have more enemies and points to get. I used to really like driving light tanks and the usefulness of APC's, but that's kinda fallen now. If you don't have an upgraded grenade APC you're 'doing it wrong' and granted I don't play much, but I don't get the sense that people find it useful to research vehicle mg's much. Which was a lot more fun for me...taking down a tank with an APC is always more fun.
I played 2.0 to 2.12 I think. I started empires when it first got that news bump from steam, I think zombie panic was in the same news bulletin. Around when orange box came out because I know for a fact empires was one of the first source mods I played. I swear smg1 felt like a super accurate death laser, one that did good damage even if you shot someone across the map. Then again that was like 6 years ago so I could be remembering it wrong. It is like you never played with hobbes. In any case if the commander is boom tanking he is usually in the area for at least a minute or two, that is certainly enough time to switch class. The real trick is that the person has to stay a scout for few more minutes when the enemy commander eventually comes back. Or they harass him with a jeep or apc. If the scout has the sniper rifle he is usually no wheres near the front line. He is either taking potshots from behind his team or off to the side engaging the enemy. In either case he isn't the best position to lay down some mines. I agree with ya. Still I don't think it would hurt to have it for the scout, I just don't quite agree that it should be a innate ability. Actually this kinda reminds me of the notion that perks for the most part are straight upgrades. Beyond the engineer no class has perks that let them specialize their role a bit more. Makes me wonder if class perks gave bigger buffs in one area but debuffed another. Tradeoffs and all that. You're mostly right about build times and recharge. The calc regens at the same rate it discharges, it is just a case of like this .3 of a second delay between when you stop discharging and it starts recharging. I just mention that because if you only need like 10 points to build something you might as well hold the button. When I talk about waiting after a heal I am talking about how the idea you proposed was an instant thing. The player and engineer don't need to sit in the same stop for 5 seconds while one of them is getting healed. The way it currently works yeah I am with everyone else and we should get back into the action because we already waited. Not if it is instant, or gives you a 10 second buff where your health regens and you can still move. The reason I liked this idea you made in the first place is that it prevents engys running after half dead people. Yeah vehicle mgs kinda suck right now. Assuming it all hits HE mg does 40 damage a second, and an apc can only have one of those at a time. It is like trying to kill something with 1 standard missile, horribly slow. I think some people complain that those mgs overheat too fast, but I think that is more for if your using it on a tank along with something else. I can't say what depleted uranium is like, I haven't seen it in so long, but it is probably in the same boat. I think apcs without ugl are useful, it is just a case of two things. Ugl probably does a better job of killing infantry than the regular mgs, sadly. With it's massive explosion radius it also does quick work of buildings, most commanders put the vf right next to the rax so very often you can find people killing them both at the same time. It really is just a case that ugl makes apcs 200% better than if they were equipped with anything else. Light tanks I think have fallen out of favor because they really can't do as much damage as a decent gren can and they cost quite a bit compared to how the early game is and how much mediums cost. It doesn't help that with the nf light tank one rpg shot will strip armor to the hull, with the exception being compo. I really wished we got that script patch that trickster said was coming before the whole port to next engine happened, I feel like a lot of these little complaints would have been fixed. I mean the current scripts are pretty balanced for the most part, just needs a few tweaks. I am sorry but I not to sure what you are referring to in this post.
