Is vehicle research balance really that bad?

This is a thread were we gather and try to find the short comings in research so we can help to improve it. Personally I feel like there is a place for most research. Some of it gets overshadowed by other items though.

Engines

For instance engines, bio diesel, 3 phase, gas turbine can be used in a variety of situations. Coolant and fission can't be used in that many situations. They have some serious drawbacks that make them unusable for a majority of players.

Fission for example can't cool once overheated really, so if a player isn't careful with heat management (which is a lot of players) they get overheated and promptly die because it takes forever to get out of that overheated state where they can move again.

Coolant has a different problem, it can't cool while moving and is super slow. So players can't give chase to kill an opponent that runs, which means they didn't do much of anything for not being able to finish them off. More importantly is when they need to leave to repair they simply can't because of how slow they move. They can't even really fire to deter the enemy because they'll just overheat while they run.

What that tells me while making it so players are enforced to use items in a certain way, players are more likely to ignore them because of how harder they are to effectively use. Or rather, commanders won't research them because they know their players will die a lot more then with a more forgiving engine. So enforcing certain play styles with strict penalties doesn't work.

Armor

Then we have armor. Honestly there is a fair balance with armor I think. Most stuff has an effective use at some part of the game which can be more effective on certain maps. For instance regen is better the more plates a tank can have because it only needs part of a plate to start regening, so as long as a the armor can resist a hit it will work. This is why it is terrible early game because it can't resist anything with only 2 plates.

On the flip side reactive is great at the lower plate count because it maximizes the amount of health a tank can have. It gets less effective the more plates a tank can have because weight allowance of tanks doesn't scale to have both better armor and weapons, so to have the fire power to make heavy tanks worth it you have to really lower the amount of armor.

Absorbant works at any stage of the game because it is a simple hp buff that also resists cannons a bit, the most likely to be hitting you in a tank fight. With how cheap it is now it can used in a variety of tactics with out bankrupting the team while still giving them some protection.

Reflective is like a more skilled based version of absorbant. It is something that can be used through out the game thanks to it's decent hp and ability to nerf damage by up to 50%, while not being terribly heavy. I think part of the reason it doesn't get used very often is similar to regen, it requires the player to keep more control over their tank which the playerbase has shown it doesn't want to have to think or be bothered with.

Then there is Compo, the holy grail of armor. It does everything, and it does it well. I made several topics on that one, but the basic idea is that for not much more money you get something everyone can use in any situation at any point of the game. Which is why it gets researched all the time, even if the team has a bunch of new people.

Point is balance by cost doesn't work either.

Weapons

Weapons are in a good spot actually. I've seen almost everything researched. I think the only complaints are bio is bugged and doesn't do damage over time to infantry and nukes blast radius makes getting away from it as infantry impossible.(Yes I know you can hide in buildings/ behind walls, but walls have to be built up and buildings are few and far between.) Actually, now that I think about it people aren't really hating on bio not damaging infantry overtime. Mostly because it isn't a guaranteed death sentence by a simple touch. Bio can't kill kill infantry really anymore, and sucks against buildings. People still like it though because of how it works in a tank fight, even after the nerf.

So the one thing weapon research shows is that no one like instant death or death they can't do much about.

So what is your opinion on research and general balance? I don't think it is too bad, just needs a couple of tweaks.

 

I fully back Trickster on the engines part, I may not be an amazing driver but I try to use each engine in such a way that I can use their strengths to good effect. I'm not sure if driving a coolant heavy into a heavy and unloading until one of them breaks counts as that, but siege is something I can totally get behind.

I don't know how to change composite to make it less viable mid-game, but a change would be welcome. Perhaps upping the weight to 12 (as Lazybum suggested at some point) so that it matches absorbant's weight (it's supposed to be a composite, right? ATM its weight is the lowest of all armours, clearly an advantage), or swap the weights of absorbant and composite would do the trick.

Also armours as a whole are too strong IMO, things don't die quickly.


Regarding weapons, plasma is still considered as troll weaponry since it's simply bad when applied like the other weapons - that's one thing that's not right with the research. I haven't as much trouble with bio and HITs, even though DOT is annoying and huge blast radius locks down infantry play. As a whole, though, weapons are fine by my book.

 

engines are good concepts, you just cant have such strong expressions of them ...

... bio is annoying but at least its a missile and people are too dumb for dumbfire missiles

 

IMO fission is easier to drive than 3phase because it doesn't make me spin out as often. I'm not entirely sure why that is, but controlling a fission tank is simpler than a 3phase one.

 

Well you are kinda right about fighting two people at once with bio ml, but it also works to damage a side of the tank that you can't/aren't firing at. It weakens the entire tank, meaning they can't just swivel around having a fresh batch of armor for you to shoot at. The main reason I think a lot of people enjoy it is that it damages a tank even when you hit the ground right next to them and damages them as they try to run, which is invaluable to finishing off a tank. I never got the bio mg though, hit detection is wonky against infantry and I would rather just put a medium chaingun to kill them out right.

I think it has a lot to about how often you can hit something. Having tank fights while moving can be just crazy with all the bumps and stuff knocking your aim everywhere. Or long range fights where simply moving back and forth means you evade half the damage. DOT can't be avoided, it is constant damage. Likewise with the blast radius of weapons people don't have to get an exact hit on them, it makes it an easier weapon that is safer for the commander to get because new people will fail less with them. It is part of the reason MGs are still viable, you don't really have to predict where the opponent is going to be or deal with shells dropping over time.

I want to point out that std mls do 40 damage a shot. Homing is great because it works at long distance, other mls don't by virtue of being dumbfire. It also can be useful chasing someone. It is worthy of being a 3slot weapon.

Rails I'm not so sure actually. Yes they fire incredibly fast, at .8 seconds cycle time. They simply weigh a lot though. For Nf it kinda works because it is only 30 more weight then the other cannons, but BE which you would think be their choice of weapon it means an extra 60 weight, almost enough for a missile like homing or bio or 4 plates of armor. Alright 6 because everyone uses compo at that point. For quite a few people ranged is more popular because it works on meds too, and doesn't require that much more research time. I do suppose it is worth it though, not many weapons can have that sorta dps. It just becomes an issue of heat management.

I didn't say the blast radius of nukes was bad in regards to vehicles or buildings. Just bad against infantry. I already made a post about how to fix that though. Basically you can increase the resists of infantry so it doesn't eradicate them which means less frustration for infantry fighting. While not effecting the vehicle combat at all.

 

There is that, but the more unique the weapons and armor you make in a effort to make the game more intricate and thus "fun", I'm assuming that's what you mean, the harder it is to simply learn how to play. You end up with stuff like coolant or fission where no one wants to take the chance on an item because people will fail with it. Or you'll have a situation empires has been in many times before, there is only one effective research path because it simply rapes everything.

I really feel like with empires current playerbase, while you could do really fancy stuff and make everything really unique because the current players would adapt to it, new comers would have an even worse time getting into the game.

50 cal does get researched quite often. It is very effective against infantry and gives du, another weapon for vehicles to hurt each other with. Plasma mg does get research occasionally because it actually does help in a fight. Guided is a mystery item of sorts. You can't really use it on the move, uml is better at destroying buildings, and homing is right next to it which everyone would rather have for a multitude of reasons. I don't know what to say about HEMG though, I have seen it researched and people do decently with it, makes a nice side weapon to he cannon.

Plasma cannon is something never researched though, and as far as most people are concerned it can stay that way. Its gimmick of overheating the opponent is something that would be game breaking if not for the fact it overheats you too. You said it at some point, for things to mess with the heat of engines you need to change how the overheating system works. Again though, I personally don't have a problem using it, it is something of a support weapon that can also do some damage. The idea of lowering the amount of damage an opponent can inflict on you while not doing as much damage yourself is a concept people either have trouble understanding or deem it not worth the hassle.

Again, I don't think current research is too bad, it just needs a couple of tweaks so the above weapons can see just a tad more use or whatever.

Did you read that post I made about nukes? Did you also know that the only weapon that uses that damage type is nukes? It wouldn't affect anything other than the damage nukes do to infantry. I'm not seeing the problem, unless you're complaining about the resist system in general and think it is convoluted. I don't see a better way of dealing with damage types against a variety of things.

EDIT: I don't understand why anyone would want DOT to stack. You make a marginally useful weapon absolutely mandatory to have because of how much damage it does. Unless you want to nerf the damage by quite a bit so stacking the damage over time doesn't mean it some guaranteed death sentence. I thought we showed no one likes that.

That post did make me wonder though, why does du do almost no damage to infantry? It isn't like they fire fast or anything, so it wouldn't hurt infantry much more than say std mg.

 

Ah, that's what you meant. I haven't heard anything being unfun to use though, maybe to fight against but that was more in terms of heavy tank balance. Which is a separate issue really, you can modify the heavy tanks around what is available but you have to account for the other chassis types using armors/weapons if you want to make stuff more fun and balanced in regards to heavy tanks.

I made the thread originally because while playing I hear complaints about either some stuff seeing too much use or other stuff never seeing the light of day. Though honestly that may just be me thinking that, I never had a problem using a variety of items yet every time I research or someone else researches something I hear nothing but complaints, even though the items have been known to work just fine, especially given the map. I personally felt it was because a couple of items just seem more ubiquitous in use, while a couple of items fell just a tad short of their original goal for some reason.

So I do think the original title is what I should ask.

After looking at that original post about nukes you were right, I failed to mention only nukes used that damage type. At the time though I thought it was only vehicle missiles that used that damage type and I didn't think it would matter much, I mean who uses missiles to kill infantry?

 

The best example of what I am talking about is getting 3phase on streets. Streets is not a map that requires high speeds. You can't run up the sides like you can in slaughtered, so there is even less use of them there. Yet people still want 3 phase. It is a map where coolant could work well but everyone overheats with it. Bio diesel is really useful but it doesn't cool fast enough for some people.

What this tells me is 2 things. Some people just want stuff because it is what they are used too, and the alternatives have too many negative side effects that make people not want to try them.

Alright if you really want to be specific about it, yes it probably boils down to things not being fun. But mostly in the cases of engines, which this story comes from, it is a case of them punishing you too hard for messing up. Not because they are in general "unfun".

Thinking hard about that question I'd have to lean towards them just wanting stuff because that is what they are used to. Like I said, it was probably me who's really complaining about the research tree, everyone else seems content with 3phase compo heavies. Which reminds me, I have another thread I need to make.

Editkalx reflective currently has 70hp a plate and regen is 55. Thing is with regen is if you mess with the hp you have to modify the regen value too, or else it will simply regen faster. Should also point out that reflective did get an hp buff of 5 whenever that last patch was, and regen was 60 before too. I'm still not to sure why the hp was lowered when he lowered the regen rate too. In any case I think regen works really well on mediums, but kinda fails on any other tank. It really is a problem of it not being able to take a hit really.