Infinite ammo FAIL

1. Because in real war you need a supply line IE engies with ammo crates or commanders dropping armories.
2. That is NOT true. I played with limited ammo and that ment i couldnt just keep attacking the emeny main over and over i had to get ammo from time to time. That ment i had to aim, that ment i had to think about were i had to retreat to, That ment more realistic combat.

The only real arguement you people have is that it makes the game play move faster and you failed to state that so it clearly has nothing to do with the real reason you want infinite ammo.

The only reason i want limited ammo is...
1. requires some level of teamwork.
2. Its more realistic/balanced

 

Youre a real cool guy flasche. Thanks for becoming more mature and less of a corrsive and irratating prick then you were on Empires. I'm always suprised at how respectful and professional the forum go-ers are.

 

It's boring plain and simple.
Or, we should get realistic and force someone to think how much food each person needs in the army, how much his equipment will cost, who will send the letter back home that he was killed in a shower of aids, recruiting of the soldiers etc.

 

If you want realistic then why not have unlimited money? Rather, when the money hits 0 you go into debt, which can keep accumulating game after game after game. Pay it off? Haha! We're the military government; everyone bends over to our might.

 

in my ideal empires tank wars, tanks would only have like 2 or magazines of each missile weapon and only like 15 -20 or so cannon shells
and engineers would only be able to repair the armour of a tank (basically patching it up a bit, no more), not the hull, a repair pad has to do the hull

then they had to resupply at an armoury or a repair pad, no ammo box ressuplying or any of that stuff (too beneficial for the engy)

why? because this way 1 awesome heavy tank does not always win against 4 or 5 light tanks, and supply lines or forward armories give the dynamic front lines that commanders can influence by placing armories further or closer etc

it allso makes it harder for 1 tank to dominate the enemy main by unloading on anything that moves, or to rush in, shoot stuff and get back out around the corner to repair since an armoury is needed for that at the very least

 

If this was a realistic game, yes. But most of that stuff would just drag down the vehicle combat and limit it. Next you'd want to add "fuel", or "weak points". Then limit turrret speed, make the tanks slower. Make all the tanks take huge splash damage if they fire at close range, hurting themselves. Fun > all. Teamwork is good, but there's far more teamwork that goes on from tanks not having to retreat to get ammo or scream at engys out of their tank getting slotted by people from close range, when they instead stick together and fight for as long as they can.

 

Infantry are different. If you're in a squad of infantry, you're all on even terms. If you're fighting with tanks alongside infantry who can drop ammo then they're in a worse position than you are, just because they're providing you with support. If you have to go back to base to fill up again, then that's just not fun.

 

Blue Engineer Needs Food Badly.

 

Its a completely legitamate argument to say that its silly to add realistic war supply lines by having engis summon ammo boxes that magically feed tanks.

Imagine increasing the reload time on all weapons to a minute and a half. Thats about how long it takes to turn around, roll back to an armory, get a snack while the ammo fills, then roll back to dump. Do you really want that?

 

its just nerfing tanks on the places that dont hurt fun

with the things i suggested you can do anything with a tank you can do before, but not on a long long spree as you can now

basically tank battle becomes more challenging for the person who wants to play "pro" and a bit less "frontal assault" for the average player unless they are in a group

it would also smoothen the victory slippery slope out to a more reasonable scaling, not that it would make hopelessly lost teams still hold on to there teeth even if they lost but more like make teams not lose in 5 seconds by the wrong enemy tank type on the wrong place due to 5 seconds of attention loss of the commander/half the team

 

Personally, I love driving around in a tank with no ammo. I also love when engineers do not drop ammo crates. Above all else, I love having to drive around as an engy to give myself ammo, and then hit all of the mines that grens drop all over the place because I can't get defusal as engy.

Having Finite ammo slows the game down, and empires is already a slow game. Most source games are based on fast paced action, and very few of them require a long period of time to complete a segment of play. This game depends on people staying the entire round by it's nature, and having long drawn out rounds because halfway through raping a base you have to run away and get ammo because your team is retarded is, in itself, retarded.

Teamwork added in exchange for slowing down the gameplay will only hurt empires in the long run. Adding teamwork alone doesn't make the game more enjoyable. If anything, it makes it more frustrating. Teamwork MUST be added in a way that does not add extra effort to the simple tasks that are required to win.

Staying close to the squad leader does not hinder your ability to move. Reviving squadmates increases the efficiency of killing the enemy. See where I'm going with this? Teamwork should make winning faster without sacrificing the speed of gameplay.

 

Basically this ^ ^ ^ ^

 

basically its like this: the gamespeed is not up for debate, the slipperly slope is

1 tank is far too powerful on its own, because its a raping battle station with no limits

with tanks it should be the same, having 15 cannon shells and 2 clips for your missiles means you have PLENTY of flexibility before your tank runs out of ammo, the spammy shit also stops a bit (a general annoyance) , since players who don't think before shooting are going to be less flexible as others

ammo is used as a limitation in many games, you dont see people whining about having magazines for your gun in infantry dont you?

sure you can go about and balance it out a different way, but limited ammunition is needed, needed because tanks are currently the most powerful troop multiplier in the game, and an unlimited troop multiplier gives problems

problems like:
a good tank driver in a light can keep on pwning the same grenadier over and over and over and over ad infinitum, by the time the grenadier can respawn, the tank driver has repaired his tank and rearmed weapons, the gren lost a ticket and is annoyed from being killed over and over without any chance at fighting back (besides "tricking" the light into driving over his cookies, but that should not be calculated for since our tank driver is aware of his situation by now)

or

a few tank drivers in a group can camp a base and keep unloading there guns (boring) as the ammo restocks, there is nothing the enemy can do BESIDES roll out there own tanks

tanks are effectively the counter of tanks
that in theory might work, but sadly tanks are also the ONLY counter of tanks
grens CAN kill tanks, but never cost effectively compared to how much the tank team loses vs a group of grens to take it down (tickets)

so... since the enemy has unlimited ammo and is in group the only way you CAN win this situation is if you can make these tanks split up and lets admit it

these tanks will never split up
a group of 4 or more clever heavies is immortal... if ever at a normal map a group of 4 or more heavies form the enemy ether has 4 heavies ready and grouped to repell them or the game is lost...

empires is a slow game, i agree, but its not slow because the game-play is slow or because its hard to win or even because its slow from design... its slow from the flaws in its design... and tank ammunition might not be the thing that fixes it, it also does not make it worse... there are other far more determining factors for that... for example how piss weak tank weapons are against buildings but yea we cant make them more powerful because then one tank could take down all the buildings a team has in 1 go... unlimited ammo etc remember?

for tank faceoffs its even worse...

its also a slow game because it takes ages to actually "claim" your superiority during a tank faceoff... people are scared to assault even if they are in an advantage because tanks are awesome in group, but getting the group to follow is tricky since the enemy will be waiting... in group to shell you to bits

additionally... its funny to see that games in my eyes are mostly (50%) over in the first 15 minutes, if not 30 minutes of gameplay (25%) but that the flaws of the game prevent it from actually ending there synthetically, because the game was built for a playtime far longer on a certain map

tanks need vulnerabilities like ammunition the same way infantry does is a needed element to complete this goal... its ether this, or something else that will create a similar effect

ammunition would be quite elegant in my opinion since its already coded in and partially balanced

i agree in some perspective,

yes, empiresmod is not like most sourcemods... hence this game is still played after all this time... BUT it is by far not perfect, and changing things does not mean it will always change for the worse

i can see that if a few tanks should be able to kill off a base completely (lets say 4 meds running down the base without too much opposition should be able to flatten it to the ground) they should actually be able to do so

atm thats handled like this... 4 meds firing at a barracks take longer then an engineer using nadespam +recycle optimal... grats metalsmith your argument is now diamonds...

tanks just aren't capable atm to actually "kill" a base itself (unless the driver gets out) and they also rarely do so, mostly its tanks creating "dominance" on the enemy base, making them unable to respond and retaliate, and infantry taking down the barracks and after that the rest of the base

sure there are exceptions, especially when heavies come into play... nuking over and over will get the enemy base down no matter what (but still mostly because the enemy infantry cannot respond... they cannot go outside and fight back or they die (wow fun...) and the barracks slowly takes more damage as th tanks infantry support does go outside and start recyclin and nadespamming! and artillery yea... its artillery...

but i do not see how a "retarded team" can influence you being unable to get ammo when there are reliable ammo providing locations like buildings... in my opinion that just means a bad commander and even then it means you feel frustrated because you demand something that is not always given

ammo boxes being ammunition depods for tanks make the problem even worse... commanders rely on engineers to put them down next to tanks and tank drivers do not rely on engineers because they know they cant count on anyone but themselves... thus they become an engineer... poverising the gameplay into "engineer as tank driver... always unless you are a partybus"

same as saying you feel frustrated at life because you do not have a few million to buy a yacht... sure if it makes the game less fun then i would say yea demand it in a game, but is shelling over and over from an endless amount of bullets so much more fun then using ammuniton? if so then why do infantry weapons have ammuniton in games? yea sure its how it is in the real world... but is that the only reason??? no... ammuniton in games helps break up the action into parts and doing so makes the parts on itself more fun and challenging


basically, not adding ammunition to the guns of infantry is like having hmg rape everyone and have endless ammo, people would just crawl on a spot and keep firing at the enemy untill they die(OH WAIT THATS WHAT TANKS DO NOW HALF OF THE TIME AT CHOKE POINTS coincidence??? i think not!)

i agree whole heartedly, teamwork should be added because its more fun then normal play, not because its "the only way to play" or because "not doing so is penalised to force you into having teamplay fun"

i disagree, teamwork should make you do the same things as you can do alone, but do it faster... yes but "the speed of gameplay" should be sacrificed extencively... because atm the speed of gameplay sucks

empires has long and tedious game play where actually it should be a chain of fun and exiting parts of fun together, where the failing of 1 individual does not mean the end of everyone and where the awesomeness of 1 individual does not win the game for every idiot that actually should have been speccing

fun comes from doing it fast, long tedious chores are boring and teamwork makes you feel part of something and if it goes faster in team then the same amount of individuals can do it he will feel like he accomplished something better then others could (alone)

squads are not using optimal advantage of this, but they are closer atm then some other games... and since this is a mod its at a tolerable level

writers note: i was extremely tired when writing this, i hope its not too much bits and pieces here and there and can be read as a single text but it IS how i feel about current situation with empires-mod tank battles

 

part 2

my suggested changes:

engineers are unable to repair tank hull
tanks can only take ammo from armouries and repair pads
tank get a max clip of 3 for all missiles (but some will be less for balancing)
tanks get a max clip of 20 for cannons (but some will be less for balancing)
tanks must be rearmed at an armoury or repair pad from 0 to full within 10 seconds, to compensate constant rearming tanks must not be reloading or firing there weapon for at least 10 or more seconds, and stand completely still
cannon damage is overall increased with 20 %, missile damage is overall increased vs buildings with 150%

oh yea i know this will never happen but:

nf heavy should have the same load-out as be heavy, it does not add "diversity" it subtracts diversity as missiles have to be identical in power to cannons compared to the missile cannon ratio of heavies and thus missiles cannot be made "adding more to combat" then just another way of dealing the same damage