Although a relatively new player to Empires, I've played many games with updates over the years, (e.g. MtG, WarHammer 40K, Counter Strike, DoD, etc.) One thing that is pretty constant is that people complain when a new update comes out. Sometimes their complaints are valid, sometimes not, but I think it's worthwhile to not dismiss them out of hand. I personally think some things are good and some are bad, but there are a few that I think are objectively good: -Bug/Exploit Fixes (I have yet to see complaints about this) -Vehicle handling (same as above) -Commander Option -New Map-making Support -New Official Map However there are some things that are more subjective: -Barracks cost (Personally, I think it could be fine, once people adjust their tactics. Time will tell.) -CV armor and hull health -Raising armor health across the board -The various infantry weapon tweaks In my opinion, there are some problems, too. Several people have already mentioned Reactive and the NF Light Tank problem, so I won't dwell on that aspect, but in a broader sense the research tree has become rather slanted. Consider: Bio Armor and Engine takes 390 seconds, and costs 1025 total. Mechanical takes 390 seconds and costs 1325. Physics takes 390 seconds and costs 1500 total. Chem takes 510 seconds and costs 2025 total. Electrical takes 300 seconds and costs 1675. Now, people can argue and debate all day long about whether or not Reflective is "better" than Reactive, or Bio-Diesel is "better" than "Fusion," but objectively, Electrical is the fastest tree by more than a minute. (It's also the second most costliest.) However, from what I've seen in game, Reactive sees a lot of use (whether justified or not.) Considering the speed at which it can now be gained (150 seconds!) I think it will see even more use. Moreover, precious few people will try to "mix-and-match" trees with the longer start-up (90 seconds.) If Super-Lights continue to be as popular and ubiquitous as they were in 2.2, I can't help but predict that 80%+ of the NF teams will go for Electrical Engineering, (at least to begin.) This is a shame, because variety and balance keep the game fair and fun. Once people (whether BE or NF) realize how fast and efficient the EE tree is, I highly doubt we'll see much variety. That's what I've gathered anyway, and yes, I have played several hours with the update.
Reactive was always available within 150 seconds, at least for as far back as I can remember. It just wasn't always quite as strong as it is now... I think part of the reason it's so powerful now is because adding 20 hp to all armors doesn't actually help them equally. It disproportionately helps armors that normally have a high damage reduction and relatively low HP, like reactive and composite. Of course, in reactive's case you'd expect it to be balanced by weight, but it just so happens to be perfect for a single-weapon MKii that can only get two layers of armor anyway. ...incidentally, by that logic, composite should be even more broken than Reactive right now (it's just that nobody uses it, so nobody's noticed yet.) +20 hp to each of those really light plates that you can max out on every side? With the best damage reduction in the game? Yeah. Sure, you go broke, but unless your team is completely incompetent you shouldn't need more than one tank per player with that, ever, because they're not going to die. (Yeah, right...)
oh wow a good discussion that actually mentions the real nightmares I had while making these changes. Reactive and Composite being buffed more than the others is done on purpose. Both had IMO very big downsides that I think needed to be addressed some way, I should have probly lowered the cost on composite and buffed regen a bit, but I felt reluctant to continue going off track with balance, more than I already did. The difference in the research are the actual items itself, Supposedly it was the biggest strain on variety in research, as people would just get regen and bio because it's quick, and ignore the others based on the time it takes to research. Electrical is quicker, but both the armor and engine have big flaws, atleast in the design. 3phase will stall on damage and reactive is a low tier armor and a very restrictive one, note how MKII's can barely hold more than a single weapon. Where lets say physics or chem is a much safer bet, generally good armor and engine, with very little downsides, as well as doing fairly well in all phases of the game (unless being hard countered), and extremely well in some familiar scenarios.
Id like to point out that the most powerful weapons that can be mounted on a MK2LT reside on the electrical branch. Now tell me this,If I have rammed myself under an AFV,far below his arc of fire,am I really going to be concerned with stalling? After all,I cant take damage from him AND his buddies are going to have to work through 2 plates of reactive before they get to the chasis. You should have sceen what happened to the 5 AFVs that encountered a few MK2LTs. Blood. Everywhere.
Hmmm... I wish that 3-phase stalled harder from damage or heat, but that is a personal pipe-dream. Currently, I dont feel that multiple weapons systems significantly advance the combat capacity of a vehicle because the heat-based constraints are combined, meaning if you are ever overheating your maximum damage over an indefinitely large period of time would be greatest if you simply used the one weapon that had the best damage to heat ratio. Remaining space can then be used for armor which provides a general power boost. The exception to this is the machinegun, which is used for an anti-infantry role. Currently, because of the way armor works, close range infantry are no longer a major threat, making ramming a more viable tactic than it would otherwise be. This combines together to grant the light more advantages than normally would occur. Additionally, every single technology which it needs is now found all in one convenient place. If it is ever found what an easy counter to this path is, then BE should in theory do it constantly, because the path is so natural for NF to take that they will constantly. Attempting to cause diversification by making it easy to finish the first part is not a good solution generally. This has been clearly and the logic was 'people do not diversify because initial investment is too costly'. That is not the realistic situation. What realistically happens is that people do not diversify because there are no clear advantages to doing so. People in games I used to play in took bio then moved on to other groups because bio created a viable starting point then moved on. Currently I have yet to see it taken in a game, and it is looking to be little used for the rest of the version. The reason is that it just simply isn't as useful to take anymore, there are no advantages to it. The cost in this case is irrelevant, because its prior advantage was time. No that it lacks this prime advantage, nobody seems to want to take it. If diversification covered clear necessities, like those tanks that used X-Tec all ran out of ammo very quickly, making it so you had little staying power, but Y-Tec could keep going forever buy lacks initial punch and response time. You need both of these to respond well to situations, or at least are better off because of them. The current situation has groups linked in this regard, and the differences that one advances in are minutia compared to the gains from continuing down the path. One doesnt need the sniper rifle and the shotgun, because the sniper rifle works just fine point blank, though not quite as good as the shotgun. This is the current state of research use.
Okay firstly i think 3-phase should be made easier to stall, maybe on 40/30% damage on armour? I also feel that lower every armour with an percentrage should be done so infantry can be more effective. But you guys, isn't this also just a very specific tactic that we assume is overpowerd? Yes NF can get quik 3phase and reactive, but BE can easily counter with Physic reflective and DU + extended range, as long as BE just can hold they can rush long range artillery and good cannons for mediums. While NF is stuck with reactive for mediums wich they can't fit much plate before sacrificing anything, while BE can have heavy machinguns and good cannons and armour on their mediums. Or BE can just go chem with high explosive machinugns apc rush or high explosive cannon rush. Has anyone tried that? Now you should be able to rush high explosive cannon for AFV MK2, and everyone on this forum has alwaysed said that was the best cannon in game. I think the point i am making here is tat super lights is one tactic, with its advantage and disatvantages. So you only need to counter it. NF dosn't have to go EE, they could just as easily go bio missile or something.
Played a few more games. Not going EE or physics loses you the game unless you're against a very incompetant team. Bio diesel is actually pointless, and regen is insanely weak compared to reactive. Sirex, the reason MKIIs are actually quite a good idea is that, indeed, AFVs can get HE, which is a great all round weapon, whilst NF can go for more specific missiles (anti-inf bio, anti-tank UML, anti-tank guided). the problem is that an AFV can not hit a light because they are too small. so MKII + quite inbalanced models = massive imbalance Composite was right to buff, but there are just no maps that are high enough res to support it. It even backrupts you on emp_money ffs. But seriously, I see no reason in giving reactive a buff. There is no reason at all that the best armour (don't deny it, it's what it is) should also be the fastest and most versatile (you only need 3 plates on a heavy, it'll still last fine). Only having 2 weapons on a light is not a sacrifice. at all. Why didn't you buff that armour that is never researched - absorbant (it really deserves it)?? Also, if you played and didn't look at numbers, you would realise 3 phase has no down side. Someone else rightly said that stalling from damage on 3 phase is just it's way of telling you you'd already be dead if you were using another armour. And one moar thing, being able to poke your finger in every tree makes the game more interesting and different, no reason why it should be longer than a minute.
We're in it for the long run, the todo list is long, the issue list is long and it should be clear that we can't work on all of them at once. I realise that you would expect us to work on the issues you think are the biggest, but someone else might not feel the same way about those issues. Choices were made, I'm sorry you're not happy with them, but there is a dimension where these changes are part of the bigger perspective and trust me, as long as you keep bringing up issues, they'll be addressed when they can.
Speaking of To do lists, has the problem with the missing Gameinfo.txt file in the full installer been fixed yet?
Maybe that's why it wouldn't work...There was an Empires folder, with all the game content, but it wasn't detected by Steam...
Squad arty and mass revive were used because they are the most useful squad powers. Why you can't see the problem? The problem isn't people use too much squad arty and squad revive. The problem is people don't use enough the other powers, the problem is the rest of the squad powers aren't USEFUL. Come up with squad powers which are useful enough to compete with squad revive and squad arty and drop the costs of those two back to where they were. The problem with the NF LT is that it is too small. The AFV isn't the problem. Yes, you could make AFV small too but the thing is that if you make AFV small too it will just end things to the fact that then both sides' heavies and meds are useless against other faction's lights because they are too small to be shot at when they are next to a heavy or med tank.
This is the opposite direction to that that i hoped empires would move in. I hoped there would be more infantry supported by tanks, teamwork esque, but now infantry are even more obsolete against tanks than they were before, and the chance of getting a squad of infantry working together without it being decimated by the first tank they encounter is reduced to nothing. I also hoped that empires would encorage interesting and different ways to play the mod and end the game, but with the gradual decrease of spawn points first from APCs and then reducing the number of barracks, forward or ninja, and especially by buffing the CV, meaning that the end point is only possible by dominating the enemy, the games i play are all reduced to a push in the middle followed by a domination. valve had a philosophy, that when a team is beaten and about to die, finish the game off. A new game, where both teams can have fun, is better than just killing off the other team barracks by barracks before finally ganking the CV. that's why the last points on their 5 point maps are always quick, to allow this mercy killing. I feel that the increase of the CV health isn't a good move. sorry to be negative, because other things do work. the commander opting for example is nice.
Infantry supported by tanks, or tanks supported by infantry? If its an infantry game, why even have tanks? Facts are, tanks can carry multiple infantry, infantry can't carry any tanks, so it would seem a bit reversed to say that tanks support infantry. Tank drivers are infantry, tanks cost money and have high armor, where the whole research tree is basically tank related, except 4 items. Infantry are free, die in 1 to 3 sniper shots. Your perception of how infantry should be supported by tanks doesn't even fit with the game, as well as that there will always remain a difference between your vision of rambo's beating hordes of heavies and teamwork between infantry to achieve their objectives. So the opposite of what you wanted, I can agree with that. The rest is actually more true with the changes made. Spawn points are a choice, they were never a choice before, in the current game, not every team has spawn points, so theres actually already different ways to play the game. Where in the old game theres 1 way, spawn points, you now have 2 different ways: spawn points, or no spawn points. If something is available at all times, like spawn points, it doesn't mean theres more choice, this example is excellent to showcase the flaws in your logic. When you can spawn in an apc, it not only becomes the de facto way to play the game, you also need to compete with the enemy, and if you don't use it, you're going to be at a heavy disadvantage. Which leads me to my point: Forced Gameplay. Yes common sense is that easy! Reducing the number of barracks? See, again more different ways to play the game, radar or barracks? vf or barracks? apc spawns or barracks? Before this question was never raised because you can always get a barracks. So again, this change actually promotes different ways to play the game, common sense beats biased opinion again! Also: multiplication != differentiating. Domination or teamwork? See, this just means you have no idea about any of the game mechanics. It's called strategy, tactics and teamwork. Ninjaing is so common, it's not a different way to play the game, it's a cheap way to end the game. Ninjaing can still happen, as well as that theres this thing called, attacking the cv, where you do an assault on the cv, and kill it. Not to be mistaken with this grand word, being used by sandbag to describe the opposite of diversity, aka domination. Does Valve have a philosophy about premature endings? No need to apologize really, it's just a bit of a joke when you had access to this version as a tester, and just now come with the negative comments, not having bothered to give any feedback during testing. I guess it's easier to just wait and bitch.
This change also seems to be encouraging players to stick together just a bit more, from what I've seen. With spawn points everywhere, players are more likely to just go off on their own screaming at the top of their lungs as they charge the enemy, knowing they can spring back to life a few feet away when they die. Fewer spawnpoints forces players to stick together more, because if they wander off on their own they die, and death is less of something that they can shrug off, now.
They weren't ignored. It's not aimed at testers in general either. All testers had access to an up to date changelog, simply by checking SVN. They had the oppurtunity to read and comment on all changes made, a lot of testers did, sandbag didn't.
well i got plenty of good and some minor bad to say about this release, its definitely different, no one can doubt that, Nor the fact that we have some team balance issues. I think we can all agree there. The Dev team has made some mistakes about this update, but overall i think it's a great step in the right way if you look at the bigger picture people. 1. Tanks/Vehicles are the most fun part of the game How many weeks/months did they spend on tweaking and fixing these for us 2 patches ago? tons. Cut em a bit of slack. 2. This list could go on for a while on the good and bad, but i'm tired so i just want to mention that i'll be providing my server as a sort of publicly available testing bed thru minor manipulations in scripting. I'll also be glad to provide them to the dev team if my scripts should prove to be somewhat more 'fair' or 'fun' and are generally accepted by the community as a whole (deemable by player population) I'd say its fair to say that if my server can 'steal' nachos players because it plays better (read: fun again) as it's never really done in the past, then we can largely assume that my changes are an community-approved step in the right direction. 3. Just like always, time will tell on this update and nothing is set in stone u god damn whiners.
Spread the news about the new update to moddb and the Empires Steam Group. First, you can never have enough publicity and secondly i still see people playing on 2.2 servers.
It should be infantry supporting tanks because tanks aren't never ending flood of something which you can move to the battlefield and then get that some thing move to the same position again over and over again. Tanks are valuable, infantry has to support tanks because you can't waste tanks in massive amounts as you can waste infantry. YOU CAN'T EVEN REVIVE A DEAD TANK. IF Empires played from the basis that tanks were the ones which you could revive over and over again, waste as much as you could and each death would cost only one ticket, then it would be tanks supporting infantry. But this isn't the case and it is and it always should be infantry supporting tanks. Tanks are the tip of the sword, infantry and their variety is the neck and the handle of the sword. Dizzyone. Radar is a must in empires because researching is a must. A good team can lose with bad commander who doesn't research better stuff. Empires is partly a tech races too. Who can first get the arty and HE and still keep the enemy at the bay while getting those items. VF is a must too because you need vehicles to support infantry, vehicles won't die to any infantry weapons whereas infantry itself does. Grenades? Dead. Rifle ammo? Dead. Mine? Dead. Mortar? Dead. RPG? Dead. Scout rifle? Dead. Pistol? Dead. Only mortar, rpg and stickies can cause serious harm to tanks. Tanks are more durable, hence you need them to keep the enemy at bay while you are racing for your techs. And barrackes are just must too. Why? Because they determine how fast you can move your troops to the critical areas. No barrackses near by = long walks done = more time for enemy to advance to critical points. = enemy has more chances to win the game. In my opinion here's the forced gameplay and making barracks cost even more makes the gameplay even more forced and harder. Only actual choices which won't determine the win or loss of a game and which are actually really free choices are whether or not to build an armory or couple of those, whether or not build ML and MG turrets or not and whether or not place some "eternal" walls or not. Also repair pad isn't that crucial but it is good to have if your team is good at keeping your tanks alive and you get more tech during one tank's lifespan. Doing vital things to win a game isn't variety of choices, they are must have choices. Only the order may wary a bit.
One thing I see is that increasing barracks cost doesn't change the fact that the team with most raxes still has an advantage over the other team. Placing baracks is still a must to get your team moving, if you don't place a VF. And baracks is still a faster way to get infantry where they're supposed to be. And when there are vehicles, there's no place for infantry, really. Tanks are so overpowered that infantry becomes useless without them. Sure it was fun to play half an hour with one single light tank and just drive over people without getting killed a single time, but something is wrong when you can actually become invincible against infantry and turrets by investing a tank for yourself and repair it once in a while. Actually, I think that baracks is so crucial part of the game that you shouldn't be able to choose between a rax, a vf or a radar. Baracks is still the building that gives you so much advantage that it is a must even if it costs 1000 resources. The cost doesn't help the fact that forward baracks gives significant advantage, so severe that the game can be decided by that, because the first couple of minutes in Empires are still very, very critical. The team gaining more territory in the beginning is almost certain to win, if the other team isn't able to brake through somehow. Also, many here have stated that NF is overpowered, yet I haven't played a single game ending BE losing in this new version... Maybe I have to test some more. Some bad things about the new map: My console has an endless stream of errors in that map and my fps is dropped to around 20-30 whereas in other maps it's stable 85. Reducing some settings didn't have any effect whatsoever. Also, there are some invisible walls around the map. Sometimes, when driving around you can just stop all of a sudden or fly upside down and die without a reason. Also, the CV has insane health... I emptied my upg.guided missiles 3 times with mkII tank to it without it being repaired and it didn't die. And I'm sure I wasn't the only one shooting it. It had no armors, I saw it was flashing with armor detection and it just didn't die. And I even left my tank and shot it with rpg, mortar and so on... If I'm able to chase the CV over 10 minutes in a row (around the new map something like 5 times), I'd be pleased if I'd get it dead.
