Why? If they are fielding a mixed force of heavies and lights they should be fielding all heavies, the only reason heavies and lights would work is if they outnumber the enemy and if they outnumber the enemy they will be more effective if their outnumbering tanks have twice the firepower.
HSM is right noob. The reason is the heavies will be busy shooting the NF heavies (unless they want to die from superior firepower). the lights cost 60% of the res (only 2 plates of armor on each side) and are much smaller. Once the lights close the difference with the NF heavies, the lights then move forward in between the BE heavies, and ram them from the sides, screwing over their maneuverability and raping them from the side while being unhittable. Either the BE heavies focus on the lights (best option but not intuitive), which hopefully will be hard because the lights will be circling the heavies or too close to hit, or they will be shooting the more formittable firepower force and easier to hit heavies. If they shoot the lights, they aren't paying attention to the UML and whatnot raping them from the main tank force while the lights distract the shit out of them. Ignoring the lights will seee theri maneuverability take a hit, or lights get behind them, or if the lights are MKIIs then they might be fucked by upgraded missles.
the balance between too much resources and too few resources for HSM "lights mixed with heavies" atm is like this imo Resources flow goes up--> |-----too few-----|balanced|--------too much--------| ............1..................2.........................3............... 1: almost no tanks are built, some lights are fielded (early game, or when you are losing) 2: HSM's idea is valid, a balance of lights with some heavies is a valid strategy here to conserve resources and still have a good offensive capability, mostly mid-game IF the teams are still tied for the lead and heavies got researched quick without too much heavy weapons in game yet 3: only heavies should be fielded, resources don't "really" matter anymore, only for the speed at which you field tanks but if your tank operators do a good job they can even overcome a reasonable handicap on resources at this phase
Well Blizzerd, lets go through the general time progression of a game, based on the progression of research: research a tree --> Get armor and Get Weapon and Get Engine --> Get Mechanical Engineering --> Get to heavy tanks Now, as this research progresses (especially with the 1500 resources it takes to research "heavy tank chassis") you are spending resources. If you managed to take a lot of refs, you are fielding vehicles the whole time, so you still stay at <1000 resources most of the time. If you managed to take an "average" number of refs (half of them), you are fielding some vehicles, and occasionally locking the VF for research. My above point is that at the time that heavy research is done, no one *ever* has enough resources to field 10 heavies. It doesn't happen. the "balance" that HSM was talking about is always there, you don't usually have "too many" resources, and if you do it is because you already have 75% of the map, in which case the commander doesnt even need to care about the tactics of the team. The team could field half jeeps and probably win if they are in the "too much" resources category. Most of the time, this isn't the case. And when it is the case, of course, everyone get what you want, comm doesn't need to worry about the game, neither do you. However, that area where you have 000 resources (which is every map except money usually) if you are worried about winning when heavies get out, get half light tanks and you will have a better chance as NF. The point stands in all cases.
Because winning teams usually do. Besides spending money on lights which are likely to die when you are tight on resources is inefficient. You should build up a large force of heavies and attack with that and take care to keep them alive. A mediocre heavy is about 1000 res and it's still better than two light mk 2s because you can field more of them and can later be upgraded to better heavies for little cash. NF heavies by their nature don't require all round armor that much because they can carry long range missiles and their ponderous turning speed and size makes them rather poor close range fighters. If you can't secure the advantage at the start, build up as many heavies as possible and mass missile fire to kill any enemy heavies which approach, then kill them when you exhaust their numbers and you have enough heavies to start pushing forwards.
Well it looks like the topic is getting... off-topic... I really like this model, moreso than the Sidewinder! Although I do agree it would be better suited to the BE team~
Only very rarely when I win do I find my team has unlimited resources (about 15% of the wins). Usually by that time I have nothing left to research or do as commander, and it doesn't matter what we field. /offtopic.
Unlimited as in 'you have more than enough to field a steady supply of tanks because you aren't losing many of them because the enemy isn't putting up much resistance' not unlimited as in 'I could not spend money this fast'.
Yeah, we don't always have 10 tanks on the field when we win. If we do, a lot of them couldn't be heavies because we simply didn't have the cash, and are usually apc's or, if NF, lights.
Even in late game, fast lights have their uses. If you're set on being a scout and sabbing all the enemy refs, take a light tank, give it a really fast engine and go. If the enemy are fielding heavies, they won't be able to keep up.
Except that lights are hardly faster than medium/heavy tanks and that can be negated by firing backwards
Firing backwards, whoopdeefuckingdoo. It's not just about speed but turning and control. When I'm in a light tank, going full speed and doing bursts in tight turns, I can pretty much maintain ample control while avoiding the dual barrels of the heavy tanks. If I'm a heavy tank with dual cannons, I can't be firing backwards while pursuing an enemy unless I want to waste ammo, and get blind-sided. I also can't make decent turns going full speed because the heavy tank is...heavy...and a bit clunky. To be honest, I think the slower engines are much better for heavy tanks, as they'll give you better mobility in turns, and give you enough speed to keep up with an enemy commander. Besides, if you want to get the speed boost from backwards cannon fire, you have to do it in a straight line. Only a few maps give you that opportunity though. What you're suggesting is that a unique perk from cannon fire justifies using it in a realistic scenario. That's fucking laughable. You only fire backwards when there's an enemy behind you, or you're stuck in a crater. A good driver can pick off light tanks with somewhat ease if he knows how, however he still needs back-up to spread out multiple tanks unless he has terrain he can work with. When I'm in a heavy tank, soloing several lights, I move back-and-forth, keeping enough distance to hit them. Tank drivers can't point blank you if you don't let them, and their reaction time isn't going to be instantanious. Simple, gets ya into hull, but you'll still get out of the battle with your tank mostly intact. I will agree that NF heavies make good missile snipers, however because you can turn in place, it's still a good idea to put armor mostly even on all sides. If you have 1 DU apc bum rush you from behind and you only bothered to put 1 plate on, you're a dead man. Since DU is prevalent nowadays, it's not out a bad idea. You'll never get the chance to build up a mass of heavies over if you're down the entire game, unless the enemy completely ignores you're main base for about 15-20 minutes. Only an idiot commander would do that, and chances are if you're down for 15-20 minutes, you're probably the bad comm. Not only that, but you'll need to allocate resources to other vehicles in the mean time, buildings for forwards bases, and research. Instead, the team which is down should be looking to either disrupt the enemies resources, or go in for a quick kill. Massing an army and hoping you won't get caught is fucking stupid. This is why you mostly see an LT/AFV/DU APC rush. They are quick to get, cheap(hence quick to get), and swarm beautifully. If 1 goes down. you still need to worry about 11 others. Chris, you're scenarios are so narrow in their construction that I doubt you've commanded no more than 10 games. Please, for the love of god, put up or shut up. Empires works well when a commander has a contingency plan, and uses foresight. You don't plan out having an epic battle and plan think you're going to get the perfect amount of resources for whatever comes your way. You plan out what you're going to do, and how you're going to stop the enemy from stopping you. Then as the battle progresses, you change what you're doing to get the best results. It almost never happens the way you expect it to, unless you know the enemy commander. There is no "get max heavies and bum-rush" because you'll already have the map control and it won't matter. There is no "build up a force of heavies over time if you're down" because the enemy team will eat away at your base, taking out a tank here, a tank there, because you can't send your tanks away from your base when they're the only thing that's stopping the enemy from destroying it. Edit: And the maps that allow this sort of tactic to work are maps with extreme bottlenecks like slaughtered, and even if you manage to get a force of heavies, you still have to get past several layers of walls, troops, tanks, and minefields. And most likely a larger force of heavies are on the other side of that barrier. I can see the logic in your argument, but from my experience it just doesn't work. Sorry to burst you overinflated, incredibly pretentious, and depressingly pathetic bubble.
lol. I don't know what you are talking about HSM. I mean, sure. I see the logic in his posts... just very little of it. LOL NF HEAVIES DON'T NEED A LOT OF ARMOR BECAUSE THEY MISSLE SNIPE! What a load of trash. Ok, lets assume they have heavies too. Lets also assume, if we assume NF (even at a disadvantage) has UML, that BE has HE, or ER. One side of plates only last so long, you will need to turn your tank or turn around and leave. If: 1. a shell lands near your side 2. a shell hits you while you turn 3. they rush you 4. they have faster engines and rush around to out maneuver you 5. have armor detection or 6. BE aren't complete fucking idiots and know they can snipe *even better* than slow ass UML because they have nice fast cannons like HE or ER or (god forbid) RAIL GUNS You are fucked. How do you intend to justify that your research is as unhindered as theirs when they have 2x or 3x as many refs as you? Their research is uninterrupted. Your research has probably been delayed by trying to place/replace buildings or build more tanks. The enemy has better research and probably doesn't have a problem usually hitting the tank limit. How in the sam hell do you think the 3, 4 (OMG 5? how long have you NOT had tanks / research) heavies you can field will last? You plan. If you aren't doing well on the map, go for absorbant armor, cheap, light, and not too shabby. Especially assuming the enemy has upper tier fasst cannons, absorbant is Super Effective! Low on research? Get a low heat weapon, like machine guns (uranium / HeMG / BioMG) and skip the engine in favor of more desireable research. Even your UMLs don't need much heat dissipation. Like what you ask? Like APC spawning, get an APC out, go around to refineries dropping infantry. A team with advanced research is about to roll out heavies. You can kill the first wave and sacrifice what little tank force you have, but if the enemy suddenly looks around and they have lost 3/4 of their refs, suddenly they're in a pickle with éxpensive tanks with powerful armor and weapons that everyone wants, but you only get to roll out one every 40 seconds. And guess what? Next thing you knowm, you research a fast engine for NF, enhancing the APC spawn points to easily outrun enemies as NF starts taking some of those refs for themselves. GG. Just one possible method, but much better, and much more remediation needs to be done if someone gets a heavy with only half their armor or so, because that tank will go down, and fast.
I meant the logic from his standpoint and from a general point of view. Just saying "NF heavies can suffer from decreased armor if they keep at a distance with missile sniping" I meant it sounded logical, but I know it doesn't play out that way. I just put myself in Chris's Inexperienced shoes. I mean, if I saw a missile sniping NF heavy, I could still take him on in a MKII AFV. Because I know he has dual missiles, it means the only way he can sustain a good amount of damage is by having composite, or if he sacrificed plates on one side for another.
I suppose my view could be somewhat biased because I usually win by having the advantage all the way through so that it doesn't come down to something as stupid as resources when there are perfectly reliable stacks and griefs and noob enemy comms to win because of. I still never really have difficulty killing anything in a missle heavy though. Regardless of what armor or engine I use, I don't really think much about which I use because it doesn't make much difference. You shoot the enemy and they die, simple. Oh and I wouldn't suggest UML unless you're playing crossroads or slaughtered, open maps work better with homing.
I've won that way a lot too. But the really fun games are the one's where you're down and come back before the end... I've had many of those as commander and they are fun every time. Well, when you play against people who can't drive, you'll get a ton of kills, lol. guided...Homing sucks if you need to be quick. If I hear homing, I'll get close to some geography, and swoop a wall in order to kill the slow missiles, lol.
