Another solution for this stupid ass tank problem

I think I Found it guys, I really do.

So if we distil the problem of the tanks it comes down to this
- We have too much resources
- We have no limit on tanks
- Tanks come into play too early and then the optimal tactic is to spam them
- Infantry are too weak vs tanks



-> What I suggest is
In mechanical we make a new tree, called logistics. When you research that you are allowed to build APCS and gain 5+ vehicle limit. The standard is set at 3 or 5 or what ever you guys want. Every other research adds another +3 vehicle limit? or + what ever arbitrary number you want.

What does this fix-> it makes it so tanks come into play slowly. It slows down the early and midgame, it makes you have to weigh the benefits of either getting early heavy tanks, or more medium tanks or other research

This solves infantry are too weak vs tanks too BECAUSE with the new upgraded rpgs you can choose between either upgraded rpgs or more tanks etc etc.

This is a great idea. I think. Lets talk about it, break it down. Perfect it and then let the dev team completely neglect good gameplay ideas.

Also make logistics cost money to solve the problem of too much resources? ( optional idea )

 

In my opinion the only solution to the "tank problem" is in a word, multicrew. Having multiple persons per tanks instead of just one in a very large tank. Even if it's just having a gunner this would halve the amount of tanks. Like in battlefield other vehicles could have multiple gunning position, it makes for great teamplay and decreases the need to have so many tanks, instead it becomes more interesting to have multiple people in one tank to cover every angle and increase the survivability of the vehicle.
However this cannot be achieved in the current state of Empires.

 

I'm not interested in tank limit. I'd prefer vehicle production time which could be reduced through a research called "logistics" if you want lol.

I agree with Xya. Such combat would be nicer than anything we have so far.

 

1: Mobility.
2: Rekts infantry.
Are the core reasons.

A low vehicle limit will just make people camp in VF and/or "GG nubs got vehicles"
It's not going to do us any good. It also makes no sense to keep that limit for early-game only.

We should make it so that people don't HAVE to get vehicles.
Vehicles should maintain their superiority (as they cost resources and it's why you get refineries), but you shouldn't be a walking sandbag when you are not in a vehicle.

 

Let's take the example of battlefield because after all, it's the roots of Empires. In battlefield jeeps have machine guns mounted on top, sometimes even 2 of them, having the same in Empires would make for more useful jeeps, and more reason to stay in them. But let's not kid ourselves, even in battlefield you tend to bail out of jeeps as soon as possible. Another example from the modern era of battlefield 3 and 4 are IFVs. IFVs have a driving seat, a gunner seat, and 4 passangers who can still shoot out of their window making it hard to sneak up on the vehicule. Now for something closer to what we have in Empires, is battlefield 1, in battlefield one there are tanks or "landship" as they called them in WW1 with 5 seats, 1 driver and 4 gunners.
You have to remember that the initial NF Heavy is close to these and the original model had 2 extra cannons, one on each side.
The BE heavy model has two turret opening so you could very well imagine having 2 machineguns mounted on top one of them isn't practical because of the cannon rotation, but it's just an example.
Basically if someone were to apply their mind to it I'm sure they could come up with tanks with either 2 or more gunning positions.

It's not trivial and I don't see it every being accomplished on this engine. It'd require a large re-write of gameplay elements, GUI, new models. Let's be realistic, that's not going to happen. If you have team that can do that might as well re-imagine the entirety of Empires and therefore give it a new name.

 

Red Orchestra 2 had great tank mechanics I thought, when they worked. You had a driver, a commander to spot, a gunner, and a machine gunner. Every role could be filled by a person except for the loader.

Specific crew could die to certain hits, which resulted in another role having to cover for it. That, or you opted for a bot to drive the tank by your orders.

 

the main problem is too many resources. its due to the change in the player multiplier years ago. its too low until the multiplier kicks in and then way too high once it does kick in.

there was ideas kicking around about running tests with different values to find a sweet spot but nothing came through, and i doubt it ever well
i posted a topic with an easy solution that developers didnt even bother to post in to at least say they didnt want to do it

when it comes to tanks i think this suggestion could work... its mostly map specific as some maps dont play well with too many or too few tanks (the overload of res just makes this problem more obvious). a question i have is how much would this extend the actual game though (one that currently goes for 40+ minutes regularly)?

 

Resources are probably the only thing that noticeably changed gameplay IMHO.
Resources and Tricksters scripts, specifically engines which made trees distinct and added valuable depth to tanking.

I like this idea as a concept, I think it wil potentially make tank use more strategic and make medium vs heavies a decision. But if resources don't scale somewhat in-line it may just mean that the mid game is extended and the late game still results in a tank clusterfuck because teams will be storing up resources and once they level their logistics out will have a big bankroll.

Commanding seems pretty risk adverse, it seems hard to convince people to make big early pushes now.

 

The only counterargument I constantly keep hearing is that people will sit in the vf waiting for a tank when theres a limit.


But when you limit tanks by res you think theh wont sit and wait?

Both are limits, both need time to give you a tank. When resources run out in this patch I either sit and wait in the vf or I go on foot. Exactly the same would happen when logistica get implemented, i would sit and wait.


And fuck if you think about it, im more inclined to sit in the vf and wait for the tank when im resource limited cause I know i will get a tank soon. Whilst if im cap limited im uncertain since iduno if my comm will researcch more logistocs or when a tank will die


TLDR ABSOLUTE TANK LIMIT AND RES LIMIT BOTH CAUSE SHITBAGS TO WAIT IN VF NICE ARGUMENT.

 

People are not used to teamwork anymore and havent seen any so they dont know if its effective. Bitches scared shitless of losing their tank. Pub games NEVER end with apc rush or tank rush anymore. Fucking sad.

 

Either people may wait in the VF if there is some kind of limit or they may just spam tanks and waste res if there isn't.
It's really not much of an arguement and wages is there for productive players to get tanks first anyway which was the whole reason for it.

I don't think it's ever healthy for the fun factor to build games around the worst case scenario for new players.
Just accept it that not everyone is going to play at a really high level and make decisions around what would be the best game, people learn.

 

Honestly we should probably normalize the resources gain on all maps.
Not saying they should be the same, but at least not "5 res/sec on this map and 50 res/sec on the other map".

But as long as tanks rekt infantry, resources/vehicle number limit will not solve the core issue.

Even if vets do get more vehicles because of wages, you'll just end up with nubs using 30 tickets because they will be even weaker sandbags when not in vehicles.

 

I was playing earlier under the Alias of Scrub

Way to much tank conflicts IMPO, at one point it came down to what team had enough resources and they would just tank spam, when originally it was more fun when infantry and tanks were working together. Instead of having some Tier of tanks, or some sophisticated mechanism. Why not make a separate class that's limited, and only increase's when a certain amount of players are on the server.

(0/3) Tank Commander's

and allow another slot of Tank Commander open when teams increase by 2 or 3 players.

You could even add rank as a variable of being a tank commander, so players would have to earn the position to play it.

 

Vulcan storm, 1 tank every mminute, or every 2 mintues is still quite high.

1minute goes faster than you think when you are playing the game. Over a course of 45 minutes. Thats 45 heavy tanks WITHOUT wages.