The Grenadier shouldn't have an RPG AND a Mortar

I dont get why people want to force the mortar from beeing
a UNIQUE WEAPON ONLY FOUND IN EMPIRES to something
rather random and standart.

I think every veteran agress with me that a skilled player kills
more people as rifleman than as grenadier. Its just the whining
of people that think the mortar is unfair cause they think they cant
do something against it and how many people of the whole community
are so skilled as grenadier that you actually have to fear them.
Tell me, with names. I count 5

As said if i play rifleman I win nearly every fight against an grenadier
and i guess every player that played the game longer than 3 month
will agree. If you still die against a grenadier than stop beeing stupid
and STOP STANDING ON THE SAME PIECE OF GROUND FOR HOURS... -.-

Most death caused by mortar shells are because the victims fight
grenadiers, like they fight other classes with guns.

 

you guys are coming to the conclusions i have also come to about the mortar.

here's my view; (a repost from an internal forum)

I want to start by justifying putting it in here. the rest of the forum is, to put it lightly, filled with inexperienced players with no idea of how the gameplay works. Frankly i don't think we need them either to discuss this. That said, i'm sure the veterans here are some of the most closed minded and "fixed" on what empires gameplay should be like. I too am guilty of that from time to time. anyway
WARNING WALL OF TEXT (sorry)



currently as i look at the grenadier, i see a class which is quite average at killing tanks. if you're with a squad and a light tank comes your way, it's less than likely that you'll fight it off even if you do have a grenadier.

BUT the grenadier class is balanced, and that's because he's actually pretty damn good at the moment at killing infantry. often the class is BETTER than a rifleman, in the right hands, at killing infantry.

let's be clear about one thing. the grenadier does not have a mortar. the grenadier has a grenade launcher. here's a pic of one:



anyone who knows or can hazard a guess as to how that works will know that it works exactly as the mortar in empires does. and what this grenade launcher does to the grenadier class is allow it to be a front line anti infantry unit.

so what do i propose is to change the mortar, from a grenade launcher, to a mortar. to do this;

-change the minimum pitch that it must be set at to fire to 45 degrees.
This means that when using the mortar, users will have to use it as a real mortar and use a high fire arc. from wikipedia: "mortars were praised because of the shell's high angle of flight; a mortar round could be aimed to fall directly into trenches where artillery shells, due to their low angle of flight, could not possibly go."
-incread pre-fire delay, so that when one fires it shows the player dropping the shell into the chamber and it imidiately firing, as a real mortar works. whats more, no extra animations would be needed because we can use the current reload animations. what this also does is remove the "snap shooting".
-increase damage and splash radius... to around the power of an HE shell. given the high flight time, players which look up will be able to see the mortars coming down and be able to avoid. this increase in power would be in line with the weapon becoming more of a support weapon.

with these changes, the mortar would still certainly be very useful, especially in trench combat or against groups of infantry. instead of aiming to hit the enemies right on, a mortar user can do pleanty of damage with a high arc. when confronted by an enemy unit, instead of being able to use the grenade launcher to potentially kill him instantly, he'll have to rely on his pistol, which means that he will certainly not be so much an anti infantry unit.

but to counter the decrease in his infantry fighting, his mortar damage has increased so that vs structures he would now be about the same as grenade spam from an engineer. whats more, the rocket launcher's homing ability and damage could be improved, a problem which irritated many people and made fighting tanks all but impossible for any inexperienced players.


Overall
vs infantry: worse
vs tanks and buildings: improved




what this does is it moves the classes apart; now an effective squad does only need one grenadier to fight off tanks, but instead should take along a rifleman or other anti infantry to . instead of every class able to do everything in a medicor way, classes will be more effective BUT only if they support eachother. going off rambo will not be as effective because as soon as you encounter something you're not effective against you'll suffer, just as riflemen do now vs tanks, but this will encorage teamplay.


edit: this as an option or alternative to the current one could allow people to enjoy the current mortar too.

 

I agree with all things said in this quote.
Tho it would be interesting if a setup mortar reloads by proxy to ammo boxes like tanks do.

 

That's a good idea, make it dependant on engineer, scout, and grenadier teamwork for max effectiveness.

 

A idea I just had was a damage modifier vs. different amours to make it more effective later game.

Right now if you have to RPG weak enough to not totally decimate early game units, it will not be able to touch late game units, but if its strong enough to destroy late game units, it will totally decimate early game units.

The solution to this it to make the RPG do the same % of damage, no matter what kind of armour its firing against. Obviously certain armours should be better against the RPG (I think reactive is the anti warhead armour?) But over all, the higher the HP of the armour, the more damage the RPG should do to said armour.

 

Mayama,

The mortar is not found only in Empires. Mortars have been used in various games -- BF:V, Operation Flashpoint mods, Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, and the various iterations and mods of Tribes. Those are just a few I can think of offhand. In most of those, it acted closer to a real mortar than a grenade launcher (Tribes being the exception, where most of the 'mortars' were just suped-up grenade launchers.)

Right now the Empires mortar is more akin to a M203 than a M252. If it's going to be a mortar, make it a mortar. If not, make it a grenade launcher. Right now it seems to be the worst of both worlds.

 

A few skilled players on a team can change the outcome of the game easily. Also, the mortar relies too much on the users' skill. That's why we are posting ideas on how to dampen such effects - things like limiting the firing angle will stop the player from using it as a close quarters one-hit-kill weapon.

 

ok you win, I'm drunk and read half way through then got kinda bored
sorry
and I just read the beginning of teh ham or some shits post and it all looked pretty gay and stuff
and all that good shit n shit

Yeah
I can get a score of 40-1 as riflemen, as gren my best has been maybe 12-1 which DOES NOT last long. Most people that bitch about the mortar have never taken the time to learn it... its not a 1 hit KO weapon, if your getting killed by a mortar that does 125 damage then omgomgomg HP upgrade (that means mo tah to face = no deathy to you)

People knock a class without playing it and its getting bad

and okay I just read teh hams post fully
thats horrible
lets punish players for being dedicated

 

I said the empires mortar is a unique weapon only found in empires -.-
I didnt say empires is the only game with a mortar.


and to the rest...

CHANGING THE MORTAR CAUSE IT DOESNT BEHAVE LIKE A REAL
WORLD MORTAR DOES IS NOT A LOGIC REASON IF THE GAME
PLAYS IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE IN WHICH REAL WORLD
RULES DONT APPLY.

and ffs you can kill people long range with the mortar, just aim
higher -.- . From middle one outside ways on cyclopean into the
enemy base is the longest way you can shot with it. Thats half
the map, a full grid size map, thats enough range I guess.

Oh and smg/assaults are deadlier in close combat because
if you miss you are not screwed like with the mortar that
needs to be reloaded first.

 

Maybe you should consider the fact that the Rifleman serves primarily an anti-infantry role, and therefore doesn't need to be changed. Yes stickies do come into it but if you're a careful driver the chances of you getting stickied are small.

What I'm bitching about really is that the Grenadiers' mortar is used in direct combat, which is pretty stupid. And as a few people have stated, should be used as an indirect-fire weapon.

It's not punishing 'dedicated' players. It's limiting their ability so other players actually have a chance at killing you regardless of skill.

Oh by the way communism, I have bothered to learn how to use the mortar, so don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about. Hell, even I've used it as a direct-fire weapon because it's so effective, it even knocks them off their target a bit too.

 

I dont have any problem useing the mortar in close combat,
I do have a problem with people that are so stubborn and
unflexible to accept or addapt to the fact that the term "mortar"
means something different in the empires universe.

If someone makes his own alternative universe he can add
flying molerats that shoot deadly rays of acid and its perfectty
fine cause it is NOT REALITY -.-

Oh and its really easy to kill grenadier that try to kill you with the
mortar, just FUCKING MOVE, if you stand like a sitting duck its your
fault and not the overpowered weapon.

I wonder why those threads pop up every now and then and I dont see
any "remove the sticky " threads cause it is the most deadly infantry
carried anti vehicle weapon in empires.

Oh and cause I like to repeat myself.

IF YOU FACE A GRENADIER THAT KILLS
YOU WITH HIS MORTAR IN ONE SHOT.
HE WOULD KILL YOU WITH ANY WEAPON
INGAME CAUSE HE IS BETTER IN THE
GAME THAN YOU ARE, FACE IT.
THE MORTAR IS NOT THE EMPIRES-AWP.
99% OF THE TIME YOU SEE THE GRENADIER
THAT SHOTS AT YOU AND IF YOU WOULD
ADJUST YOUR STUPID CSS PLAYSTYLE
ABIT SO YOU CAN HANDLE INDIRECT FIRE
YOU WOULDNT HAVE THE PROBLEM.
STOP WHINING THANKS

 

dear mayama,

1. quit trying to build up your e-penis. you dont have to be a dick head. argue by presenting a logical explanation of your views and why his views are false but wait here is real hard part... in a polite way. otherwise you just look like a hooting baboon.

2. if your going to use the its a different universe excuse then you have to compromise a bit and make it a distinct different universe. people will always argue about the mortar because of what it means here on earth. and you yelling that the definition is different here again makes you look like a hooting baboon. why not compromise and just call them different names. instead of the assault rifle being called assault rifle ( despite the creativity that went into the current name) why not call it like a J-106 or some other letter/number combo because people are used to letter/number combos for guns so they will immediately recognize it as a gun. and then you can make the numbers relative to each other so that the HMG has the biggest in the rifle class.

now your probably wondering this is about mortars why use rifles as an example. well i didnt for 2 reasons. 1. i want you guys here to work together to come up with one. so this thread has a point rather than a parade of e-penises. and 2. i couldnt come up with one.

 

Seriously, NOTHING right now in empires needs to be nerfed(unless its a nerf gun) the mortar is only really effective against inf in close range, medium range if the person fighting the gren is a retard. and if you see your friend next to you get blown to little bits by communism and his gren skillz, just rush him because he can't reload faster than you firing a clip of bullets.

The roflmen and grens are both 2 VERY different classes, with one distinction that they both can kill tanks. roflmen are anti-tank in close range, and anti-infantry in close-extremely long range. grens are way better ninja's, they can drop 12 mines(ammo up) and they are CAPABLE of fighting, not made for it like the roflmen is. If its anything except plain or abs armor, and an afv vs a gren, the gren is going to lose.
Now, im sure we can all agree that roflmen are real bastards, but there just part of the game. if you get killed by a gren in close range, you
a. fail completely,
b. lost all motor skills,
c. thought you were playing hello kitty island adventure,
d. you just witnessed what the gren HAD to do to ninja, survive, kill some more.

so really, pistols, stickies, mortars, 9mines, roflmen, level 3's, dual rails, nukes dont need any nerfing, empires was made so that there is a weakness to everything.(especially the RPG, a direct hit on infantry and its one shot kill!)

 

How often do you use an RPG vs infantry...

 

Whenever I have said infantry in a compromising position.

 

I killed two people with one rpg before. Beat that.

And no they wern't in a vehicle

 

communism, thats because you have great gren skillz...
but one nuke is all it takes to kill you, your only virtual human.

 

I actually like that, "hooting baboon" can I have that as a custom forum status?

 

that is a great idea...

 

When I'm in the mood for epic lulz