The Grenadier shouldn't have an RPG AND a Mortar

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by teh_ham, Sep 27, 2008.

  1. teh_ham

    teh_ham Member

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    Basically, I think the primary weapon for the Grenadier class should either be a Mortar or RPG - like the scout can change his weapon from a sniper rifle to an SMG. Even though the Mortar is effective against infantry, structures, and vehicles - and the RPG is only effective against vehicles, and rocket-sniping. Making the player choose between either would make the Grenadier more balanced.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2008
  2. communism

    communism poof

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    IDK he like totally should
    rpg will be buffed (lets hope!) and without mortar I'm fucked
     
  3. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    Hope that was a typo :P

    From a game story perspective its basicall one weapon.

    From a gameplay perspective, why should the grenadier be the only
    class that isnt able to kill vehicles and infantry with the same loadout?

    I bet that turns into a flamewar bevor post 10 ^^
    Most people that post suggestions to nerf the grenadier
    are the same people that want the scout rifle to be buffed.
     
  4. Demented

    Demented Member

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    *points at mortar*

    *points at scout*

    Faolse!
     
  5. Rynthas

    Rynthas Member

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    Personally, I think the grenadier needs some serious work. The mortar is laughable as a mortar, and the RPG needs some serious work -- using it feels suspiciously like spitting in the wind. If the mortar were actually made to work as a mortar should, I could maybe see allowing the grenadier to only carry the mortar OR RPG, but I think he'd need some sort of light rifle/SMG to make up for it then.
     
  6. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    play longer get used to the mortar and you dont need a smg
     
  7. Rynthas

    Rynthas Member

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    Right, because you can do a quick duck and pop a shot at close range, which is exactly how I've died _every_ time I've been killed by a mortar. To put it quite simply, this is _not_ how mortars should work. As it is right now, the mortar is a better weapon at 10 feet than it is at 150 feet, which is completely backwards.

    My suggestion that the grenadier get a SMG/light rifle is only IF the RPG/Mortar are reworked to more closely fit how they should logically operate, at which point it may be decided that giving the grenadier both at once would make them too powerful. In that case, it would make sense to let them pick either a mortar OR RPG, and carry a rifle as the 'primary' weapon.
     
  8. Solokiller

    Solokiller Member

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  9. Empty

    Empty Member

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    He's right. Rynthas, that is.
     
  10. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    Rocket propelled grenade launchers are a type of grenade launchers,

    please specify to clarify
     
  11. Empty

    Empty Member

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    Think the SMG grenades in HL2 and HL1, that's what the mortar is like.
     
  12. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    then it should be made... differently

    really, i think it fails at it as how it is now

    sorry :(
     
  13. Empty

    Empty Member

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    It's not so much field artillery as free short range HE, something needs changing with mortar and artillery.
     
  14. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    Maybee... the mortar in THE ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE works in that way???
     
  15. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    That's sort of the problem.

    The mortar is too powerful in the hands of a skilled player, because it's completely accurate, universally effective, carries plenty of ammo, and can shoot over walls, the more you practise with it the better you get, to the point where there is no point using any other weapon.

    The grenadier is the best combat class in the game for an experienced player, the rifleman is easier to use but the grenadier outperforms him, and that's a problem.

    Either make the player choose between RPG and mortar and balance each accordingly, or make the mortar impossible to use in direct combat, make it so you need to deploy it somewhere and you can't fire it at a low angle like the artillery or something, and give it longer range and greater splash to compensate, turn it into light artillery basically.

    The only objection I expect to hear from anyone on this is 'but I like the mortar' and I respond 'of course you do'. Everyone likes the gun they can kill everything with, but it isn't good from a gameplay perspective, it tips the game far in favour of skilled players and causes new players to be much less useful in the game. Now of course you might say the mortar isn't that deadly and it isn't in the late game, but in the early game it dominates, and as everyone knows, the early game in empires decides the match more often than not. If you fail to capture the refineries early on, you'll be playing catch up for the rest of the match.

    Separate the rifleman and the grenadier, make one direct combat oriented, with guns that shoot straight at the enemy, and make the grenadier more of a support player, with guns that shoot from further back or from cover, like the RPG and the artillery-mortar. You can keep them both effective against both tanks and infantry if you like, but if you do you have to give them totally different ways of going about it, otherwise there's no point having two classes. The mortar also needs to be balanced more on numbers than on player skill, because player skill is too varied to be an effective balancer.
     
  16. teh_ham

    teh_ham Member

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    I agree with that. I like the idea of an angle limit, that will definately stop it being used in close-quarters. What kind of annoys me at the moment is the fact that the mortar is ready to fire as soon as you finish crouching. Meaning you can start strafing round a corner, start crouching, and by the time you are within view of the enemy, bang - you've fired and begun to get back into cover around the corner. So how about this:

    -You start crouching
    -You are fully crouched, a progress bar begins filling
    -once the progress bar is full you are able to fire the mortar
    -once the player begins standing up, the progress bar starts emptying, during which you are unable to stand or go prone.
    -the progress bar is empty, the player is now able to stand up/go prone, etc.
     
  17. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    I was thinking you crouch and press the secondary fire button and it freezes you, locks your view to an upward tilted angle, and then lets you fire after about a second or two, you can undeploy with the same key.

    You could even put in some fancy aiming system if you like to give the mortar some advantages over regular artillery apart from being free, like a satellite camera or something hovers over your selected target, and a pitch/yaw system which uses the movement keys so you can get it more precise, along with the pitch/yaw values needed to hit your current target (selected from the arty target map) as well as the values you're currently aiming at.

    Make it so you can set it up anywhere, aim it easily, and give it less damage but more splash, so you shell an area, damaging everything in it but infantry have a chance to get away, I'd also give it a small amont of inaccuracy so the shells spread a bit, and perhaps a slightly higher rate of fire?

    Basically a mortar grenadier can set up behind a wall with an ammo box, and direct fire towards where your guys are attacking, forcing enemy infantry out of cover and shutting down enemy mortars. It gives you a way to beat turret farms as an infantryman if you get a scout and a gren working together, and it gives the grenadier another role he can play, one which still has skill involved as being able to quickly adjust your targetting will help, but which doesn't dominate the early battle because infantry can keep moving to avoid firem and it would take three or four shots to kill them anyway.

    You could also give it different types of shell perhaps, like an anti-building round which does more damage to structures with a small splash, for taking out large buildings, a smoke shell, a concussion shell/flashbang shell, and a normal frag shell.

    It shouldn't make artillery obsolete because it packs nowhere near the mobility and destructiveness of artillery, with arty tanks you can level anything you can land shot on within about ten seconds, a mortar is more for shifting infantry out of cover, dealing with turret farms, and suppressing infantry trying to advance through a chokepoint.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2008
  18. ScardyBob

    ScardyBob Member

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    The mortar should be an anti-building weapon rather than an anti-infantry or anti-vehicle weapon (which it is used as right now). Just make it fire rounds similar to the seismic grenade (great vs buildings, bad vs inf and tanks). Problem solved.
     
  19. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Why not give the grenadier seismic grenades instead of the mortar then? It would do the exact same thing.

    And there's nothing wrong with making it effective against more targets, you just need to make it less skill based, I don't mind being killed by a mortar as an infantryman if I have a chance to avoid it and can easily defend myself or at least get away.
     
  20. communism

    communism poof

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    Grenadier is probably the one class that isn't broken

    Theres that old saying, if it isn't broke don't fix it?
     

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