This is absolutely false. I am seeing a lot of good rifleman/grenadier using shotty instead of their primary weapon under a lot of circumstances. This is also not entirely true. SMG2 isn't as bad as you think it is for long range that you can "assume" it will lose this fight. Not to mention pistol 1 is getting nerfed for similar reasons I believe. ""So we shouldn't discuss this SPECIFIC example. "" The problem with shotty is not only because it can instant kill for close range, but also because a random newbie with shotty can kill pros instantly, and it's hard to resist. Again, we are not requesting shotty to become weak. All we want is remove shotty's ability of instant killing. A lot of Empires gameplay mechanics are unintuitive? How many times do I have to say this : A lot of things are fucked up doesn't mean we should tolerate any specific one of them. Also, I almost forgot. You should come up with some valid reasons to support shotty's OPness. So far you are simply denying our reasons with "not-so-valid" argument, this doesn't make you win this discussion.
Name me some examples of good grenadiers or riflemen who would forgo using their mortars/rifles in lieu of the shotty, if you please. Furthermore, define "a lot of circumstances". Do you honestly mean to tell me that people are using the shotty instead of the mortar at close range? I personally find that hard to believe. I use the smg2 a lot more than you do (since you by far prefer the smg1), and I can tell you with a large degree of certainty that it would lose against the p1 over long ranges. The pistol 1 is certainly getting nerfed, in terms of damage falloff, but it would be unwise to speculate on that. Therefore, I'll concede that point to you. To be honest, I never found it difficult to resist the shotty. I just listen to stuff like footsteps, look for shadows, etc. Just don't let them get close, and you're fine. Certainly, the shotty can be problematic on maps such as crossroads, but other than crossroads, I can't think of a single other non-commander map where the shotty is actually problematic. Like I said earlier, if you wanted to give the shotty 4 bullets for each magazine, cut the damage output in half, and increased the RoF to compensate, I couldn't care less. My issue with the shotty, as I have stated repeatedly, is with it simply not having enough damage falloff. And yes, many things in Empires are unintuitive. The shotty, however, is simply not big enough of an issue at the moment. I would personally like to address the inability of NF meds and heavies to powerslide, but I'm pretty sure that there's no simple fix to that; another issue I would like to see addressed is the inability for grenadiers to scale at all against late game tanks. Your argument--correct me if I'm wrong-- seemed to rely heavily on the assumption that "a shotty is a secondary weapon" and "a secondary weapon ought not to kill in one shot". However, you have not described why you think a secondary weapon should not have the ability to kill in one shot, nor have you defined exactly what a secondary weapon ought to do (as Candles has). This mode of argumentation, that certain weapons fit predefined roles, and that they must be relegated to these roles as an invisible standard holds fit, certainly doesn't carry a lot of weight. For instance, I could argue, by this standard, that the mortar shouldn't be effective against infantry, and that it should be nerfed by not allowing jumping whilst it is equipped and by slowing the movement speed of grenadiers by 10%, simply because the mortar "ought" to be an anti-tank or anti-building weapon, and its ability to one-shot is therefore OP.
You did not touch my core at all. Why is it reasonable for shotty to possess one shot kill ability for close range combat? It's okay for a seconday weapon to be good, but why one shot kill?
Why? Because it takes skill to pull off. And, incidentally, if you want to talk about common FPSes, the Deagle can one-shot people in CSS, but the M16A1 rifle (can't remember the exact name) can't. So it's not that far of a stretch to assume that the shotty, as a secondary weapon, is capable of one-shotting a guy. Also, I know that you have logged several thousand hours in this game, but you can't just play that card like it's an insta-win button to an argument. However, your arguments did make me curious enough to actually look up the script values regarding the shotty pistol, and holy hell, it does 192 damage if all the pellets connect. That seems a bit--interesting. I think I'll give it a try tomorrow to see how well it plays, actually. Incidentally, I looked up the values regarding pistol 1 and smg 2 accuracy, and that has solidified my belief that the pistol 1 would be superior over long range. It does more damage at long range, and its jumping spread is literally the same as the prone spread of the smg 2, as weird as that may seem. One more thing: don't forget that the pistol 2 can one shot engineers and scouts at close range as well.
Is their difficulty of one shot killing, the same as shotty? No. For deagle you have to aim his tiny little head. For pistol 2 even if you managed to aim his tiny little head, you still have to deal with its shitty accuracy. For shotty you just have to put your crosshair on his body (Not even completely) and BOOM. Also deagle and pistol 2 has shitty RoF. Did you consider SMG2's ROF? This is where "experience" kicks in, you have to check every numbers respectively and you have to "IMAGINE" how the shit might go, with low accuracy btw. But I don't have to, I've encountered too much of this. I am not saying I win all arguments instantly due to my experience, the point is, you don't really have much solid REASONS behind your statement.
Well, to be honest, I never really had trouble headshotting with the Deagle, but I used to play a lot of CSS. And whilst the Deagle has a shitty RoF, you only really need the first shot. The shotty has a shitty reload time and a shitty magazine size, so that counters that. However, the point here is that, unlike CSS, in Empires, you have things like revive engineers, and you're (usually) not playing six v six, and there is (usually) the ability for you to respawn. So, even if you do get killed by the shotty, you should ideally be travelling with your squad, at least two of whom should be revive engineers. So unless the shotty-user manages to insta kill both of the revive engineers somehow (unlikely), you should be absolutely fine anyways. Yes, he might insta-kill you, but your support will mow him down. Edit: Yes, I considered the smg2's RoF, but its RoF would only be a detriment to it at long range.
Once Reznov stopped raging it became old. Everyone loves a good moan about balance though. Even when it really only makes a tiny difference to gameplay.
This is a decent idea but unlikely to get implemented due to the fact that the model / animation would need changed to enable it to work properly
I think it's fine for model to remain as it is now, simply let each barrel carry two bullets. Animation is the tough bitch. Mainly because there has to be 4 rounds ejecting out instead of 2. The other part could be done with copy&paste I believe?
You're not the only one. Security and I talked over steam, agreed to disagree, and the he, Youzy, and I played two hours of killing floor.
For fuck's sake all them walls of eye soring text. You guys really need to learn to compress your points into affordable space. Anyhow, I didnt see anyone mention the most common reason people start going around wielding sidearms, they just dont have any ammo left for anything else.
