I suggested this because I am tired of doing all the work of (A base building Engineer; a foward engineer; a trooper; a tanker; a commander) all at the same time. Something like a que will allow commanders to focus on more important things like dropping that ref; instead of playing around with the ressearch menu all day... I dont want to be paranoid checking the ressearch tree every 5 seconds just to make sure I didn't miss it... *** I cannot possibly see how this will take away from the game in any shape matter or form; currently the commander already can find more then enough things to do...
The more I think about this idea, the more I think it's essential for future versions of the game. I reiterate my opinion that anything, ESPECIALLY something like this, that eases the learning curve for new commanders will make the game FAR more enjoyable for people who just d/l the game to try it out. We don't want to scare these people off with confusing or ill-timed research trees. I'm not saying I find the tree confusing, but a newbie could look at those 6 (or is it 8?) base techs and not know what to do with it. Yes, it will take a small amount of skill out of the game that the senior comms have mastered, yes, it will mean that they will have less of an edge over new comms, but think of it this way: now you can worry about advanced tactics instead of worrying about sitting in the comm waiting to click that button. If the devs don't know about this suggestion yet, I think someone should alert them to it, and soon. Not me though, 'cause I'd probably just piss them off.
Commanding will always be the hardest thing in Empires to pull off... Anyway I was just trying to get the discussion going: I totally agree with this suggestion
√Long post warning! I enjoy being ultra fast with getting the next research and I always have some kind of scheme planned before hand, which I might improvise on when needed. The thing is that a commander should remain important, having a commander that pays attention, not one that just does all the tasks and can consider himself done with one aspect and move on to the rest, he has to pay attention to everything at all times, and thats the art of being a good commander, making his task easier is the same as removing a commander from the game. Big no from me for trying to automate commander tasks. I like the fact that right when your research is done you are busy doing something else, will you keep on doing that or stop with all the consequences and select the next research. This promotes self service commanding and doing infantry chores, while the commander already has little control over things happening on the battlefield. A commander should be one the whole game long and if he decides to step out, he should risk not being able to get the next research in line. just because teamwork isn't optimal because your team is a bunch of noobs does not mean features should be changed to your game-style of not sitting in the command-vehicle the whole game. This game isn't 100% RTS, there is a good reason why RTS games have a queue, you'll have to continuously buy new units and upgrade, from multiple buildings, while in heavy combat, infact micro is probably a major aspect in all RTS games, as its only one person controlling a whole army. Even the ones that aren't based completely on micro, like Supreme commander, a queue is necessary as you will still have a few dozen buildings, and the players that do micro their units like mad have the main advantage. Empiresmod isn't as intensive for a commander, and the little focus they do need is all they have currently, combat is done by other players, building tanks can be done by players, building stuff also needs players, the only things the commander can do is guide and keep their players safe, making up the main strategy and having a full view of the battlefield, doing research is one of the other big things the commander has, removing the necessity of a commander keeping a close eye on it is IMO gimping the importance of a commander. This game should remain a proper hybrid, which does not mean a game needs to follow all features of a RTS and FPS to be a hybrid, rather follow the main rules and make its own on how to combine the gameplay. The battles are small, bases are small, mapcontrol is small on current maps, everything in this game seems to be focused on strategy and skill, being as perfect as possible at controlling it in small numbers, rather than being able to do 500 things fast at the same time. not only is a queue not necessary, it goes against having an active commander that has no role on the battlefield. NS doesn't have queues either, or mass dropping of gear, it has hot-keys and thats all the commander is getting, and as all of you know, a commander in NS has a lot more to do, keeping in mind that they have a limited, close-up view of the battlefield, and have to rely on sound a lot etc. The last part of my rant is that I am confident this may seem as a good suggestions to many as (obviously) RTS games have it. not sure how many more times I can say no, but please no A suggestion i do like, which I actually suggested myself (;p) is that krenzo makes a command out of every available function in the game, so that everything is either bindable or scriptable (g15 keyboard or razor mouse macros also). If you have enough keys on your keyboard, or a fancy little toggle script, that lets you have one key for every research scheme you use the most, this would let you bypass the research menu and do it with a single key. Support my idea for 1.09, this is a improvement that needs to be done and having a key for research is imo just as good as having a queue, without letting a commander fall asleep and still give their men the research they need to win. @buttery lobster, timing also plays a great role in your strategy, not just picking which research to take. Also how would this make it easier for noobs to learn the research, all it does is research the ones they pick, they wont notice what it really does, most likely your average player that knows a bit bout research will tell your noob commander, queue up this research, all the noob is doing now is make a queue for the plauers on the field, making his attention spam even less important. While you're busy thinking up how this would improve the gameplay, imagine what such a feature would actually do to your regular pub game where a commander gets bitched at for not doing the research the average player without any advanced knowledge of good empiresmoid strategies wants @knighttemplar, playing games is sitting in your chair and about how well you can press buttons, I think thats a harsh line to draw and classify getting every research individually, compared to alot of features in your average game. Its a part of being the commander, and an easy one at that, get the research and go on with whatever you were doing, dont get the research because you somehow forgot or ignored it, face the chance to have a disadvantage, and maybe even learn to remember doing research. If you don't want to read all of this - Cons: - Promotes self service commanding. (random guy jumps in cv, makes the research queue and gets out to do whatever he was doing) This is also what will happen, commanders will not stay commander and get better at it, or explore their abilities as they can just queue and leave the cv. - takes a way skill from being a commander that pays attention and has teh uber micro. - Commander is less important and is more the infantry bitch. edit: also I dont know if anyone saw that video I made (i think its somehow hosted on moo's empiresmod site, claims its a empiresmod promo :S), of me commanding on isle (1.04 i think it was), you could see me easily do many many tasks, and without a single problem get the research at the right time. (only one time did i click research 5 seconds before the last was finished) And that with a broken research count down, which raises a good point, just watch the timer people?
I can see that there is fair enough case against a LONG queue is fine as it certainly does take the commander out of the role of commanding and out of adjusting to the scheme of the battle. but what you've said doesn't seem to refute the suggestion for the ability to queue up only the next research. this means that as soon as you make a research, you, sometime in the future, have to go to the research screen and choose what will be researched next, but there won't be the hassle of loosing seconds of research or having to to choose you're next research instantly. a single queue'd item ability would allow you to actually browse your research tree (neccessary for new commanders) without detrimentally affecting you're team. also, a single item queue will not allow the self service commanding you speak of to much greater an extent than there currently can be.
Theres a good reason why i didnt mention anything about this suggestion, take one sec and think about this suggestion and you will realise why this is the silliest suggestion ever made. Just for the lazy people i will explain: You take the first res and queue up the next, while the research is running you can queue a next, but wait a second, isnt queuing up the next everytime one is busy exactly the same? Yep, you still need to click everytime after the first queue you made and above that most I said still applies, its a lazy mans tool and pushes this idea into a dark automated corner of dissatisfaction.
I'm with RPG on this. While queueing / cueing / large automated robotic pool table is indeed a good thing for RTS games, Empires doesn't really need it. Because the "lack" of this feature, you have to make some decisions sometimes, and this is what is hard for some newbies. Losing valuable seconds on research just seems a bit of an oxymoron. Remember that commanding is a tough, confusing and sometimes frustrating job, but also very rewarding, and it's certainly not for everyone. People who can't handle the research (ohnoes!) will probably also have trouble with other micromanaging aspects of Empires.
I still think it's a great idea Those who have long Queues risk accedently researching things they don't need as the situations turns. I don't think this specific action dramatically changes the role of the commander, it simply makes it a little easier on the people who haven't mastered the art of commanding. Why not let them focus on the really key parts of commanding when they have to, in order to have more decent commanders. I still maintain that in low player count games, a full time commander can be a liability. I think one of our greatest problems is that we can say that such and such change isn't needed because we can handle it as it is, well a lot of us have been playing empires for over a year, so yeah, if we can't handle something, that's to our shame. The people who've said this isn't necessary are some of the best empires players, well maybe everything is easy once you've played a game for long enough. If we want to attract new players, we should be looking at aspects of gameplay that make the game easier while not negativly impacting gameplay. I think this is a prime example.
I'm with KT on this one. From dizzy:isnt queuing up the next everytime one is busy exactly the same? Not really, it now takes twice as long, so you can stay outside the cv building something also twice as long. Or build something on the other side of the base (but don't do it unless you're sure the cv is safe), because now you can get to it, build it, and return before both researches are over. And i also vote for making research visible. It's nice to know the exact same moment if something is completed, or what armor is being researched. And btw, even with all this, the commander has still a lot of work to do, and remains the most important person in the game. He is a little less stressed though, and doesn't have to answer questions like 'what are you researching' anymore.
meh maybe someone should make a commander training course for the new players and make Dizzyone happy
Precisely. It's just clicking buttons (in the most literal way). How hard and confusing can it be? If newbies can't handle that, well... :p
It wouldn't quote this, so: (Dizzy) isnt queuing up the next everytime one is busy exactly the same? (Silk) Not really, it now takes twice as long, so you can stay outside the cv building something also twice as long. Or build something on the other side of the base (but don't do it unless you're sure the cv is safe), because now you can get to it, build it, and return before both researches are over. (Caelo) It's not the commanders duty to build stuff! The commander should keep track of all of the battlefield and not just one small part.. just get a engineer to build the base.. (Response) This only works for sure in clan wars. On a public server with 5 players (4 players 1 comm) in each team it's all but certain you can find someone who wants to build the base. Try having 2 scouts, a rifleman and a grenadier build the base, advance, build forward bases and attack the enemy. I think a good comm should be willing the leave the cv to help his team. I'll laugh myself to death when a commander comes crying: "someone is laying mines around the cv, come back and help me." This isn't really relevant here though. The point is a good comm should help his team whenever possible, and it happens a lot that he can't count on teammembers (too few, too far away, noobs, ...). (Silk) And i also vote for making research visible. It's nice to know the exact same moment if something is completed, or what armor is being researched. (Caelo ) Do your eally want people to start nagging about YOUR research choice? A good comm tells his teammates what he is researchign and keeps them informed about how long it takes to research this and work towards the final research goal (Response) I may have had a comm who explained really everything he was doing once or twice in over a year. If we can see what he's researching, he has more time to explain what he wants us to do with it, and we can use it immediately when it's done. He doesn't have to check the research every 10 seconds anymore to inform us if it's done right away. We'll see it ourselves. And people are already (and will always) bitch about the research. Fact is it's the commanders choice, so all they actually can do is make suggestions (and give a reason why). Bitching should be ignored, as it is at this moment. And knowing what a new commander is researching does give the team the opportunity to help him, to give feedback. (Silk) And btw, even with all this, the commander has still a lot of work to do, and remains the most important person in the game. He is a little less stressed though, and doesn't have to answer questions like 'what are you researching' anymore. (Caelo) see above Anyway I've never been stressed in my whole empires-playing part of my life! (Response) Well that's you, i for one will never be a commander because i can't handle it. A lot of cw applicant choose the option 'i like to follow orders', and for a good reason. It's the best and worst job in the game, depending on who you are. As it is now there's more than enough experienced commanders, but once there are lot's of server (one can only hope), you will have less experienced commanders commanding your team a lot more. Remember 9 months ago how much people were complaining about noob comms? This may very well happen again once empires really starts off. I say we do something to make it easier (only a little) for commanders, so we all can have a better game. The comm would still be as important as it once was.
the hard and confusing bit is that you get ZERO seconds to browse your research options, so for newbies that will certainly not know what to research next, they're going to loose seconds of research to that. not because they're a worse player. because they're inexperienced. that's elitest. a comparison would be a cheat code in the game: all the experienced players know it, and new players don't and so are at a disadvantage. you could argue "they're new so they deserve a dissadvantage", but you know that that is total bullshit, because empires, nor any game, should be about "who has played the game the longest wins" but "who is the smartest, quickest and most efficient wins" -------------------------- I'm not advocating a one item queue because it allows people to stay out of the comm vehicle for longer, because by having only one item in the queue, you still have to keep returning to the CV to add the next item. also, because you can't queue more than one item at a time, the rate at which you choose new items it exactly the same. so yes, one item queue does not make researching any less lazy. all this suggestion does it make researching easier for new players and more efficient for everyone, without any of the problems of long queues that you have put forward.
everything that requires speed and can gain you an advantage over the opponent should be considered a skill, thus paying attention and being able to time it right is a skill. The menu not being responsible or clumsy is a different issue and a queue is not a direct fix to that, it changes the gameplay in many ways that should not be intended if the research menu is the only problem. @silk, (silk: " This only works for sure in clan wars. On a public server with 5 players (4 players 1 comm) in each team it's all but certain you can find someone who wants to build the base. Try having 2 scouts, a rifleman and a grenadier build the base, advance, build forward bases and attack the enemy.") Again, playing the game wrong isn't a good arguement to implement a feature, this game might be ment to be a fun pub game, as Krenzo has mentioned, and it does idd have a lot of aspects based on forced teamwork, which are hard to get around without having a proper team. Still doesnt give any excuse to claim this is a good feature as half of the games played have no teamwork and everybody in your team is a emp_recruit. On a side note, making things easier does not make players better at the game, instead they can get away with sucking more, and as seeing they win more, they get an attitude of "hey i won loads of games, I don't know how exactly (well they wouldnt say that ;p) but apparantly im doing something right so stfu" With that I am idd insinuating that the playerbase and their skills will go backwards with features as this, they can afford to make more slips and still miraculously win, not that theres anything wrong with that on its own, but when it goes at cost of players that have practiced months on end, and have no way to take advantage of their skill, this is idd wrong. If commanding was different, I would probably like this feature, I'm not against good features, and if this would be implemented I'd trust Krenzo's judgement, as he seems to have made a lot of good judgements. (or apathy) My point is that this will not actually effect newbies going commander the first time, maybe theyll see it as something usefull, but it will not effect them in any way that might improve their game, or have a better understanding of commanding, thus excluding this arguement of doing it for the newbies. Another point I tried to make in the long ass post is that if a commander idd decides to drive around and build stuff, or whatever other infantry task, he should do this at cost of not being able to command, this doesnt translate into research only, but cmon guys dont rpetend a commander has tons of things to do, most of it goes around in the commanders head, and his hand-eye coordinate, the rest of the tasks are very minimal, infact I could probably name them all on one hand, which I won't as I fear forgetting one and being corrected I'm all for improving the research menu, easier ways to do research (binds) and more information, just not automation of a simple task that can cost you a game and let cv be a self service jeep, dont let there be any doubt about it, thats the first thing this feature will be used for.
Except cheat codes don't get explained in minute detail in an official manual. I even animated the damn menu! How hard can it be to do? And for research items, we have a Research Appendix and a graphical representation of it. EDIT: Well, NOW it is minutely explained, I found two inconsistensies in it. :p I'm just going to shamelessly add the updated file here because I don't want to upload it to some ad-ridden uploading website...
Because we are talking about the que, there should be an option to pause the researching so it wouldn't spend all the money all the time when there's enough money for the next research. People would soon start to ask "WHERE THE VUUCKING HELL IS OUR MONEY GOING WE CAN'T GET ANY TANKS!!!! 1337 lol." Also totally canceling the research que should be implemented because when you once make a que and accidently make it all wrong you can't stop it anymore and from that idea I got this next one. There should be also an option to cancel certain parts of the que so the whole que wouldn't get canceled. And the last idea of mine is that there should be a money limiter for automatic research so it wouldn't spend all the money away when there's enough of it to get next research. There could be some options like: "1. Get next research as soon as possible." "2. Get next research when there's +100 amount of resource over the next research's cost." ... "6. Get next research when there's +xxx amount of resource over the next research's cost." Or something like that so the autoresearch wouldn't eat all the money up as soon as there's money available for the research. If there wouldn't be that kind of money limiter, the team which uses the que would soon find out tha they are running low on money all the time and the can't affort any new tanks or buildings at all. Edit: Those are just ideas for the que so it would work well if it ever gets in the mod.
Wouldn't it be much simpler to just make auto-research free? It's hardly unfair, because both sides receive the same research at the same time anyway. Just leave all the resources to the players. And yes, the queue should definitely be abortable.
