I like this idea, but instead of losing research, it should be dropped as an item. Then both teams have to try to get it back to their radar. The victim team will need to do this to stop the theiving team from picking it up again
Since everyone tells us to search before we post, I found what I was searching for... Why not have it so that if a radar is sapped, any research completed is also available to the other team? This will make scouts more useful and force people to be more alert and pay attention to their own base
No. Research stealing is stupid. It's in the "DO NOT SUGGEST" thread for a reason. It's horribly unbalancing. One scout sneaking into your base shouldn't cost you the game, and it certainly shouldn't cost you the game at random. Oh, whoops! I'm a scout who snuck into your base just as you finished researching heavies, stealing the tech and skipping the longest, most expensive part of the tech tree! My team spent the time researching good armor and engines, or whatever, something else -- either way you are now effectively something like five minutes behind in research, aka totally screwed. Even two minutes behind in research -- having the enemy gain one free tech -- amounts to being totally screwed in Empires, basically. What's that you said? It's pretty much random luck that we researched something different from what you're researching, so it'd be such a good advantage for us to steal it just then? It's pretty much random luck that I happened to sneak in just when you finished a key research that would make such a difference and put my team so far ahead when we steal it? WHY YES. That's why this suggestion is goddamn stupid; it's a coinflip with the whole game riding on it. Typically, an advantage of one research item = GG, better luck next time. Very rarely can a team recover from being a minute or so behind in research. (And no, saying "THIS LETS THEM RECOVER!" doesn't help -- it makes it worse. So we have to hope for another coinflip? Generally if your suggestion would completely dominate existing gameplay, that's a sign that it is a really bad suggestion.) Nothing should let you get free research items. Even allowing an entire squad working together in a sudden rush to get a free research item would probably be broken. Allowing one person to have even the slightest prayer of doing it is damn stupid. Nothing should let a team leap ahead in research like that. Not ever. BUTBUTBUT, IT GIVES LOSING TEAMS A CHANCE, shut up. It gives them a coinflip, and it gives teams that are slightly ahead that same coinflip. Out of all the perennial suggestions Empires gets, this is by far the worst (although vehicle stealing comes close.) It's poorly-thought out idea that is almost actively hostile to good gameplay. Empires isn't built for stealth; nothing in Empires should rely, particularly, on stealth, certainly not something that can lead to an instant GG like this, and particularly not something that comes down to 'cross your fingers and pray' even once you get perfectly into the enemy base (since you just have to hope that they're researching something good just now, something that your team doesn't already have.) Kill it with fire 'kkthxbye.
You could always make it only one thing, and make it the lowest thing that the enemy has that you don't already have. Excempt chassis on the grounds that vehicles are different from both teams, and Klabooey! You have the beginnings of a good suggestion. No need to flip out. Edit: You'd have to limit it to about 3 uses per match though.
The same basic problem remains. Sometimes the lowest thing the enemy has that you don't have is going to be useful and an advantage of even one useful tech is usually going to be enough to basically win you the game. How often do you win a game where your comm forgot to research for the first minute or so? Because that's what it would be like to have a research item that took a minute or so to get copied by the opponent (who doesn't have a redundant research of the same type already). Making it the lowest tech still means it's random; now it's just random based on the state you and your opponent's overall research trees happen to be in when the research is stolen. You're just fiddling with the odds a bit; it'll still sometimes randomly win someone the game, with no strategy or skill involved, just the random chance of whether or not the research you steal is one that fits into your research path. If you do steal a research that cuts the time you need to get an armor/chassis/engine/weapon combination onto the field, you will win unless the teams are horribly unbalanced. Period, gg. Leaving that up to chance is just a bad idea. And limiting it to 3/game is admitting that you know that it's broken. Nobody would say "Oh, let's put in a super-weapon, and limit it by saying that it can only be fired 3 times a match!" That's silly. There's nothing about the fourth stolen research that would make it any more or less broken than the first three stolen research items. Basically, the problems with this are: * Sending scouts into an empty, unused enemy base is an inherently horrible game mechanic. Nothing should be done using it. Forcing the enemy to defend an otherwise empty base against single scouts is stupid, and it would be a dull thing to expect anyone to do. Scouts should not get any benefit from sneaking into an empty, unused enemy base. Players should not be forced to constantly patrol their otherwise far-back-line bases that nobody but a scout could reach. Empires is not Metal Gear Solid, and nobody is ever going to want to specifically have to guard a back-line radar against scouts. Ever. Nothing should encourage scouts sneak into back-line bases. There shouldn't be any rewards for sneaking into back-line bases, because there is never going to be anyone standing there to stop them, and there should never be even the slightest encouragement for anyone to stand there in an empty base waiting five minutes doing nothing just in case a scout arrives and they have to stop them. The idea is... well, goddamn stupid. Scouts should not be attacking empty back-line bases. Period. If you really insist on continuing to push for it, I suggest that you can be the guy who sits in the back row babysitting the empty, completely dead original home base for the entire game, every single game, just in case one or two scouts decide to make a try at it sometime over the entire course of the game. * Research is the most valuable thing in the entire game. Most of the early-game fighting over res is done to maybe, slightly impact the enemy comm's research by slowing it down by a little bit. If you can manage to do this, you will often win the game. Allowing one individual infantry to have a serious, entire-research-item-sized direct impact on research is an inherently horrible idea. Those research items are the hard-won results of a dedicated effort by the entire damn team over an extended period of time. One lone scout should never, ever be given even the slightest chance of directly having that much impact on research; doing so trivializes nearly every other aspect of the game in one way or another.
Ok, you're a little caught up in the moment right now. If it was my suggestion, it would definately take a scout a long time to acquire that tech - after they had sabbed the radar. The variance of what tech would be depending on how it could balance. You could limit it to level 1 only - meaning you could only steal certain armour and engines, or something like that. One tech wouldn't usually win you the game, it would usually give you more armour or engines to choose from. And on the third try admittedly, it would net you a weapon most likely. That would be a problem. The next thing is, why do you keep your radar in empty bases? I keep mine right by me. And let me add to that, that although I haven't been on the ground as much lately, any empty base, is like inviting me (or any vet engy) to cripple your team. If you have a rax, vf, radar, ref, it can all go down in next to no time. Definately if I don't have to fend off a guy while doing it. That is about twice as much power as this suggestion. Lastly, my point is not that this is a great or even good idea. It's just not to rant right off the bat, which is what you looked like you were doing. I'm fairly sure you didn't think of how to adapt the suggestion first, which is what you should try, always.
um Fricken Hamster, you fail. I already did this with a sourcemod plugin, dont you remember the flaming?
Make it so you can tag research the enemy is doing. If the enemy is research absorbent armor, you can sab the radar. Now your commander can research absorbent armor at half price and two-thirds time. Not unbalanced and it can be useful.
Possible Effects due to Scout Sabotage of Radar 1. Steal enemy research 2. Slow enemy research 3. Increase enemy research cost 4. Show enemy research 5. Speed up friendly research 6. Reduce friendly research cost PLEASE! Implement something else than the current scout sabotage effect for the radar. Any and all of the above can be balanced by time required, proximity to the building, warning signals, etc.
It might be cool as a sort of Team Fortress 2, grab the intelligence minigame. But the catch would be you'd have to make it back to a friendly radar, after stealing from the enemy radar.
But there's still the same problem. Empires is not a CTF game right now. Do you want to turn it into CTF in every single comm game, with the radar being a super-valuable flag point that has to be constantly defended even when the frontline is halfway across the map and there's nobody anywhere nearby? Are you suggesting that someone should always have to stay behind to guard the radar? Guarding the radar simply isn't fun, not when you're probably only going to get a handful of scout attacks on it in your typical game. Nobody should have to guard an empty base that's only really accessible to scouts. Therefore, there shouldn't be any significant benefits for a scout sneaking into a base when the rest of their team has no way to reach it.
generally im against stealing research. i like the basic idea, especially the one where scouts would have to transport the research (a briefcase) back to their radar to enable it. but i think it could lead to the following strategy: - your team researches nothing. - but you build a radar (and a rax with some turrets ofc) somewhere close to the enemy base. - tell 4 guys (obviously scouts) to get jeeps/apcs/tanks/whatever, run to the enemies radar and steal their tech. (i bet you would find even more abusive things) ok, with this strat in mind i suggest some limitations to make not very powerfull, but still something you might want to do: - you can only steal technology that is available for research to you, if its researched in the meanwhile -> bad luck, if they have no usable research for you -> bad luck - technologies have a value indicating stealing preference (i think, research prerequisites, engine, armor, weapons, the rest, in that order should have a little less impact) - in case there are two or more reseraches with the same preference value, the one you steal gets picked randomly. - it takes a while until you hack the radar (-> sabotaging the rader should take longer, i suggest something around 15seconds, no alarm needed) - once you aquire the technology, you have to pay half its price (pay the scout) and it takes half the time to finish the research (adjust the machines that produce the stuff) to enable it for you but still, im against research stealing ... ... id prefer letting the scout have a look at either the enemies current research, or their whole techtree edit: also, i thought you were for removing the scout rifle because of "lone wolfing" that doesnt encourage tight teamwork. it would lead exactly to that - lone wolf tech stealers. think about it
*sigh* just make the most recently researched item to be free of cost if it ever gets researched by your own team... Problem: this encourages lone-wolf style gameplay which is NOT GOOD for empires.
The CTF would just be the mini-game for scouts. It'd balance with the scout class as present, since sacrificing accuracy for say hide, to get past turrets guarding the radar, makes the scout a useless wanker in combat. And there could be some balancing of the CTF aspect by saying that it only reduces research time for the more expensive techs. Possibly balance the scout with hide vs. turrets guarding the radar by making the scout visible (eliminate the hide skill) when they grab some intelligence, and maybe even highlighting the scout big and bold on the minimap. It's just a thought for re-doing the scout class. Regardless, forum opinion seems to be that scouts need an overhaul in some degree.
