Remove heavy tanks, and add more medium variants.

zombified link to the different tank traps is great. the first one would be the best.


have a field be placed like walls but as a rectangle instead of a line.

code wise it could just be a zone where no tanks could drive but nothing else would be effected and they can only be removed by engies.

or just have it cut tank speed by like 90% opening it up to turrets and grens. also if it reduces speed instead of acting as an invisible wall it would allow mines to be placed in the field of rods for tanks to hit.


btw,

reminded me, which RC was it (or was it even 1.07? i dont remember) where any tap would cause tanks to esplode?

 

It feels like this thread has gotten greatly off-topic, but i have an idea:
What about limiting the number of plates heavys can have on their back? (like 2 plates) . This would make them very vulnerable on their own (since everybody would know to aim for their back, and the heavies cant turn fast enough.) So heavies would always need to be supported by someone covering their back.
It might not be enough to balance heavies, but it sure would make them less god-like.

The only issue i see coming with this is nukes raping heavys, since they can alway hit their rear for a great deal of damage.

 

So you cut nukes.
Winwin.

It makes sense on a brenodi heavy, since they have a huge exhaust vent on the rear, not so much on the NF ones though.

 

But balance should be prioritised over realism.

Another thing: Make it so heavys can only turn their top 270 degrees leaving them with a 90 degrees blind spot right behind them (where their weak point is).

 

Honestly, I was playing Red Orchestra recently (it's not necessarily a good game to compare to Empires, of course, since it prioritizes realism), and it sort of convinced me that multi-driver tanks might work; the fact that its tanks are multi-driver makes them much, much more vulnerable than the ones in Empires.

One trick, though, is to ensure that it is at least possible for one person to manage the tank by switching rapidly between seats. This puts it at a disadvantage, natch (because it can't move and fire), but it helps a great deal.

Another thing Red Orchestra does that might be considered for Empires heavies: The view for a tank's main gun is extremely restrictive (like a zoomed-in scope, and you're stuck with it.) Even the driver has a pretty limited view. These things help make the tanks much, much more vulnerable to the game's deployed anti-tank rifles, which would never work in the current Empires (you'd get shot before you'd even finished deploying them.)

Red Orchestra also doesn't have tank customization, which 'forces' tanks to be significantly weaker in the sides and cripplingly weak (as in, one-hit kills, usually) in the rear.

All these things mean that tanks are often used more for support, rather than dominating the charge completely.

Of course, I dunno if we'd want to do all that in Empires, but bits and pieces of it could be considered as ways to balance heavies.

 

From reading 11 pages, I've summerized most of the good ideas i've seen (you guys are awesome.), and recreated some in my own opinion, open to flaming, and critism. (preferibly critism, and constructive at that.)

- Vehicle speeds; perhaps reduce the effectiveness for the engine by a percentage for each vehicle class - like jeep get 100% effectiveness, lights and apcs get 80% effectiveness, mediums and artillery get 60% and (super?) heavies get 40%, this way speed/heat dissipation will be determined by the engine and then the class of vehicle. Reasoning behind this; More armour = harder for heat to escape, more weight = reduced speed.

- Going back to mediums with variants (Guns, Armour, Speed), lock the "Gun" variants turret to only effective for 90 degrees (45 left, 45 right) and reduce armour by maybe a plate on the rear (alot like a self-propelled AT gun). Unlikely all the armour would be used anyway, since most weight would ideally be in the guns. With the speed variant, perhaps drop a plate and weapon slot, and give a speed bonus, or reduce the negitive effect in the previous paragraph. And finally, the armoured med would be easiest, keep it as it is, maybe drop speed a little.

- Reduce turret turn speed for each class as it gets heavier. LT and APC naturally have a faster turret tracking speed, because the turret head is lighter than the heavy turret head.

- (something to think about) Create a tier 2 APC (heavy tank chasis, without the turret head, or with a altered turret head), slower moving apc with higher armour, no rotating turret = better armoured spawn point, cant be used to rush.

- (linked with previous paragraph) Drop the heavy tank, and replace with super heavy, ala the many ideas before me. Driver (mg with 45 left, 45 right), Main gunner (180 degree sight, foreward), left gunner (120 degrees on left and rear, maybe a little foreward) and right gunner (opposite of left.), commander built, heavily armoured and seperate heat for each gunnery position. Maybe able to carry extra troops like BE light. Super slow.

- Comm mines, make it like building system currently, not able to place near enemy buildings/walls/etc.

- Tank traps, small hitbox to reduce effective cover, high hp, engineer built (and comm?)

- Genetic modification skill tree under biology to improve infantry, run speed, health.. maybe even add a damage type to the teams weapons (bio, plasma, he, etc?) but that would have to be interchangable, so it's one or the other, you could always re-research it. (like, researching an alternate damage type reactivates one you had previously?)

- remove the "end all, beat all" tech, Nukes and rails.

- aircraft do additional damage against larger targets? ie, if they do base damage, or even reduced damage vs lt/apc, you do increased damage vs heavier armour. Making tank busters, creating more of a rock/paper/scissors kind of system, to some extent. Just a thought. Not including comm.

- maybe a "Engineering" path to improve build times for engineers, add hp to buildings/comm, or improve comm armour (bio/composite or whatever).

I imagine there are plenty pros and cons to what i've mentioned, but they're on the table now

 

Gives me an idea, how about 2 cameras? a 3rd person camera thats inaccurate and has no crosshairs (more than now), and a Restricted first person camera with crosshairs and a rangefinder. The 3rd person would be fast movement, but inaccurate, while the first person would be slower, turret-wise and speed wise, but accurate with helpful crosshairs and a rangefinder. switching between them should result in a halfsecond dead time (switching view, unable to fire but able to move at previous speed).

 

I'm happy with tanks driving how they do, it's hard enough to keep a tabs on your whole tank, and if someone gets close to sticky it's pretty hard to stop them. Adding this will just make tanks useless vs riflemen.

 

To be clear, while I was just throwing it out there, even to that extent I only meant to be throwing it out there for heavies -- having them vulnerable to riflemen (and other infantry) was the idea. Mediums and lights would work like they do now; heavies would have a more restrictive set of controls, making them vulnerable to being swarmed by an infantry ambush if they're not covered.

It could lead to something sort of along the lines of heavies beat mediums, mediums beat infantry, infantry beats heavies? Something like that. People would want to escort their heavies with a wave of smaller tanks, to keep the infantry off.

 

I say mediums should be renamed and made into fast moving 5platers with the same weapon outfits, and heavies get renamed and made into 4platers that go slower and are weapons platforms.

 

i support the suggestion in the first post in this 11 page long thread.

 

If mediums are, quite rightly, made the focus of tank combat, NF are gonna need a new tank model, otherwise they will be at severe disadvantage to the BE med. I would suggest looking at some of the russian cold war era tanks, since everyone knows NF are communists in disguise...

 

I don't think that's a good idea, but yeah, Empires shouldn't be like a normal RTS in that bigger more expensive tanks are always better, all the time

 

Reduce the speed of heavies. Make it so they cant aim downwards as much as they currently can, so they cant hit you if you get close to them.
This way they would be very vulnerable to rushes where you just ram into them before they can shoot you, but as long as they stay behind their defences they would still be as powerful as they currently are.

 

They're at least more equal than the heavy tanks.

The NF medium can actually hit the Imp tank at close range, it can turn while moving forward, and it doesn't have to compete with railguns.

 

The NF med is still outclassed in speed manueverability and coolness factor by the BE med. Its piss easy to hit and handles uninspiringly.

Would be nice if heavies can only take 2 slot cannons... Perhaps give meds the 3 slot cannon?

Maybe upgrade plasma to 3 slot, with a nice stackable damage over time burn effect to tanks, as well as the overheating and normal damage. Oh and have it set infantry on fire, as well as blind them for a few moments. Would need a suitably longer reload time (similar to HE).

Ranged Cannon needs to be made the definative 2 slot anti tank cannon, with a much faster projectile, and causing a small amount of damage when it hits, followed a second later by a much larger explosion that truly rips through tanks' armor. Of course, it should be piss poor against buildings and infantry.

 

I agree.

P<S<R<P is soo much better than L<M<H

Keep the heavy tank models and make them smaller and medium variants.

Would make this game soo much more competitive and less clock-work

 

I love that idea. Especially since it's not a bad one, either. Which one was it that the allies crapped themselves about in the russian parade at the end of WWII.

The T-32?

 

I would have thought somethink along the lines of the T-64... just so it looks like a reasonable competitor to the BE med. With some NF'ification of course.

Its backstory could be along the lines of it being a tank still in development at the time of the Jekotian defeat, as a reliable replacement for the greatly outdated medium tank, which was heavily outclassed by the superior Brenodi medium. The discovery of blueprints and even functional examples of the tank allowed NF commanders to shirk their reliance on the obsolete medium, and begin production of a tank that, while unable to equal the BE mediums' manoeuvrability and speed, surpassed it in its capabilities to carry armor and weaponry. :D

When I learn modelling, so I can do it myself, I guess... :p

 

Personally, I think Ranged and HE need to be rebalanced a little. The ranged cannon should do the 80? damage that HE does, and HE should do the 70? damage Ranged does. It would make each cannon more viable and it wouldn't be a 1 stop research for HE all the time. TBH, making the most damaging cannon also have the most splash range (HE) is kinda stupid. The way forward for cannons would probably be best to make all the 2 slot canons equal, but with their own distinctions that make different ones viable in different situations.