Official Scout Thread Mrk III

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by DonMegel, Sep 30, 2009.

?

Should we do this?

  1. Right now!

    14 vote(s)
    35.9%
  2. It needs some changes

    8 vote(s)
    20.5%
  3. No.

    17 vote(s)
    43.6%
  1. DonMegel

    DonMegel Member

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    This is the third revision for the scout and perhaps the most controversial. Note: The poll is new.

    The scoped rifle will absolutely be removed.
    Building Sabotaging is to be removed.

    It appears there are two main ideas about the scout, Assault class and support class. Using skills and load outs I think the scout could do both.

    An Assault Scout would be an effective flanker, fast, light and pack a punch but with a little “scouting” ability.

    A Support Scout would have a great deal more “scouting” ability but with added bonuses that support those around him.

    Both versions have 10% lower resistance to bullets but have 15% more stamina. Both increase the range of the squad aura when inside of it.

    A fresh scout has his choice of any weapons, shotgun, SMG, rifles, etc. The skills he chooses then limit the weapon and equipment load out. The Binoculars are always chosen. Scouts get one additional free class specific skill to help customize.

    New Weapons:

    -Shotgun with deadly melee. The shotgun will have a blade or other lethal hand to hand aspect.

    - Timed explosives with adjustable time. Exact damage and number of charges would have to be balanced. Bonus to damage if multiple charges go off at once.

    - Shock Mines, a specialized anti-infantry mine that kills with an enormous electric shock delivered through the foot of the victim. They also generate a flash that momentarily blinds nearby infantry. These mines are small and difficult to spot, although health upgrade can protect the player from a single mine. When an enemy soldier is killed by one of these mines, his body will jump around in a manner similar to combine soldiers killed by the super gravity gun in half life 2. Grenadier mines will now only hurt vehicles.

    - Flare gun: Can be chosen instead of pistol. Flare reveals a wide area and shows its contents on the mini map (HUD in the case of infantry, like a camera does) When fired scout appears on enemy radar for life of the event and flare hovers over the area. Flare lasts 30 seconds and has a 60 second recharge time. Can be fired at enemies to set them ablaze.

    Binoculars: Still the scout’s “tool” but have different roles depending on skill set.
    - To begin with when looking through the Binocs, the Scout may “tag” enemy inf/vehics/buildings. These units appear on the mini map and on the HUD. Limit of 5. Artillery spotted message replaced with a soft beep. If unit that is tagged gets destroyed scout earns 1 point.

    Skills: Skills now become what defines the scout rather than a way to augment him.

    Support Skill- With Binocs out, but not looking through them, Primary fire brings up a build menu that allows Scout to drop engy camera/radar. These quickly build on their own. Scout can also now “hack” enemy engy equipment to turn it to their side. The models change over to yours and work as if you placed them. Rifles can no longer be chosen.

    Assault Skill- Scout is now always a short range Radar/Camera. Units are displayed on HUD and minimap. Spawn with extra ammo but not extra explosives. Stamina recharges 10% faster. Only standard grenades can now be chosen, no other explosives (timed explosives, anti personnel mines, etc)

    Bastard Skill (Assault is a prerequisite) - Can “finish off” wounded enemies so that an engy can not revive them. These “finished” foes would loose the icon indicating they can be revived.

    First Aid Skill (Support is a prerequisite) – Can now use the Binocs to heal team mates.

    Communications Skill (either) – Spotted vehicles now have armor detection, meaning if your squad members look at them you can see what armor has been damaged. Enemy buildings now show a health bar as well. Nearby Radar/Camera now have wider range. Enemy mines (both types) get little icons above them denoting them as mines. This applies to squad mates as well as long as scout is within aurora.

    Counter Intelligence Skill (Either) – With Binocs out scout is now a short range camera/radar jammer. This includes removing/disabling Commander attack orders within range of the Jamming.

    Martial Arts Skill (Assault is a prerequisite) - would allow scout to make a lunging long jump at the expense of all of his stamina. Weapons can still be used during this lunge.

    Silent Skill (either) - Kill messages are not displayed. Weapons make significantly less noise. Running/walking makes no noise. Muzzle flash dulled significantly.

    Resourceful Skill (either) - Walking over dead infantry (friend or foe) gathers ammunition. If scout is support type they gain more ammunition from the dead and can give it to other players by walking up to them and hitting Use.

    Artillery Spotter Skill (Either) - Can now spot 8 targets through Binocs. Holding down Primary fire, when looking though the Binocs, for three seconds "targets" a building, or patch of ground. (units can be spotted but not targeted) Artillery can now “lock onto” the target and hit it every time.

    Hide would remain
     
  2. pbstrein

    pbstrein Member

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    I have 2 things to say about the skills. First, you should make it so a scout can either have the shotgun, or hide. If you try and put them together, then the scout can be an instant kill hider. The next thing i have to say is the martial art skill. You should make it so that they jump relative to their stamina, or they have to have a certain amount of stamina before they can longjump. Otherwise, there will be a scout jump far all over the place. Other than those two, it sounds great.
     
  3. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    Many of the things you suggestion seem a bit ridiculous. I mean no offense by this, they just do. Mostly I mean things like the martial arts skill.

    I believe with a few minor changes you could make this more reasonable.

    1: No special melee for the shotgun. The shotgun is already a shotgun, if it isn't effective at point blank something is wrong. Limiting it to ammo also prevents the scout from being ultra-lethal forever behind enemy lines.

    2: Letting them choose any weapon breaks down class roles, prevents the currently 'neat' organization that occurs in game, and does not sit well with the current flavor of the classes. You will encourage people to be ineffective, not because a scout will be inherently bad now, but because they can choose to make suboptimal choices for the hellofit.

    3: Breaking it into two sub-classes is ridiculous. The main reason is that it, again, goes against current role specifications. More significantly, it leads to a class that has two mediocre sections rather than a full class. Most importantly, it feels arbitrary, and that ruins alot of the internal consistency of games. Instead of two reasonably arbitrary decisions that do not fit with current themes, you could...

    4. Give scouts the ability to choose between a 'multitool' and binoculars. It gives them a reasonable difference as the basis of their skills. Currently, the skill list as a whole seems so arbitrary it makes me cringe. Why can one scout kill the wounded, but another can heal others? Neither has a medkit, both are the same class. Giving them a choice of a tool makes this distinction work. Additionally, the class already requires too many skills to be functional, you add a large number of haphazard gimmicks rather than solid elements that define the playing style of the class.

    4: Many of the elements you describe would have very cumbersome or difficult to implement in-game interfaces. The most notable one of these the artillery lock-on style abilities, but it is not limited to this. Things like the martial arts lunge, role of binoculars in semi-active abilities, unusual flare-gun properties, and easily spammed mines all lead to reasonably awkward gameplay, that feels silly rather than disciplined or organized.

    Overall these suggestions seem to make the game less serious, and I dislike that greatly.
     
  4. KamakazieWatermelon

    KamakazieWatermelon Banned

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    Ugh.....What is it with everyone wanting to put the shotgun withe scout? that is a horrible idea. as much as i like it, get rid of the scoped rifle, just give them a highly accurate semiauto rifle. everygame has to have one. say what you want about it, the rifle is a staple. i do agree with the others, multi-class thing is a bit weak, but a couple new different weapons to choose from wouldnt be so bad. i guess you could make the scout strictly ultilitarian, by making the term SCOUT perfect for describing his role. Like being able to relay enemy postions Via his binoculars.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2009
  5. Demented

    Demented Member

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    I haven't contributed in other scout threads because I couldn't figure out an efficient way of criticising. I am experimenting with just striking out the bad, which seems optimal enough. The justification for why it should be implemented is on you, or possibly anyone else who wants to step up to the plate and explain why they like it. However, that doesn't mean I can resist adding quips...

    1. Splitting a class's options up by skill selection should either be done to all of them or none of them. Since I have heard nothing about doing the former, I am going to insist on the latter. It would also require revising the skill/class selection interface very completely, which would either delay its implementation or require the implementation to be partial and half-assed.
    2. Having the scout sit by something to momentarily increase its radius is boring for the scout. I recommend that you do not make this kind of suggestion in the future.
    3. Unless your intention is to have very weak explosives that only become effective in multiples, this would not be balanced.
    4. Unless this is the Pyro's flare launcher, No.
    5. The Ammunition Upgrade and Stamina Upgrade skills would like to have a word with you.
    6. If scout is meant to be limited by ammunition when soloing, this will not help matters. If it does not decrease the ammunition count of the players who are dead, and you can steal from friendlies who are later revived... Where does the ammunition come from? ("And this here bullet I found lodged in your liver.") Giving ammunition in general is an idea I have no fault with, mind you, though the engineer might wonder about the necessity of it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2009
  6. KamakazieWatermelon

    KamakazieWatermelon Banned

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    Also, Silent kill? Really? If you want to give them a shotgun, thats fine, but silent kill makes no sense when youre running around point blank blasting enimies. it would make sense with the scoped rifle, or a long distance weapon.
     
  7. Mashav

    Mashav Member

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    Answer this question: Will there be testing of other different outlines?
     
  8. DonMegel

    DonMegel Member

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    As I said before, Yes.
     
  9. Mashav

    Mashav Member

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    Actually you didn't... All you said was that it would be easier.
    In any case, good.
     
  10. communism

    communism poof

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    I really think hide needs a complete rework. As mashav said... scouts will still be useless against any turret partially defended
     
  11. Wertbarg

    Wertbarg Member

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    Too complicated, But I like the effort you put into it.
     
  12. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    I will see your scout proposal and raise you another one. I understand the purpose behind everything you did in this (I think), and believe I can equate it into something that will make all parties satisfied.


    The scout class starts with no resistances to bullets of any kind. It starts with 50% more stamina than other classes.

    The weapons a scout may take:
    Primary: SMG1, Shotgun, Semi-automatic Rifle* (these cover all 3 range catagories)
    Secondary: Pistol
    Grenades: Sticky Stun, Remote explosive, proximity mine
    Tool: Utility Device or Binoculars


    New Weapons:

    -Shotgun. Extremely deadly in close range

    -Semi-Automatic Rifle. Basically a slightly lighter version of the carbine/HR

    -Stickystun: As current. It will also stun turrets, like concussion grenades.

    -Remote Explosive: Up to 4 can be placed at a time. They do extra damage against walls. 4 of them will kill a wall or take a rax down by 25%. base max ammo of 3.

    -Proximity mine: A small mine with a large area of effect. It can be taken away instantly with defusal. It generates a flash similar to a concussion grenade. Thrown like a grenade, sicks to walls like a stickygrenade. It deals 75 damage to infantry only.

    Binoculars:
    - To begin with when looking through the Binocs, the Scout may “tag” enemy inf/vehics/buildings. These units appear on the mini map and on the HUD. Limit of 5. Artillery spotted message replaced with a soft beep. If unit that is tagged gets destroyed scout earns 1 point.
    -When looking at any unit through binoculars, may see its current health and class.
    -When targeting tanks, may see its current armor and engine type.

    Multitool:
    - Is similar to an engineer's tool but has a limited ammo supply, 100 units to start. 200 with ammo upgrade.
    - Can sab turrets for 10 units.
    - Can sab other buildings for 25 units.
    - Can sab vehicles for 50 units.
    - Can destroy a wall for 50 units.
    - Sab is now much faster and no longer does damage over time. Buildings are decreased to 50% max health because of it.
    - Sabbing a vehicle will likewise reduce its chassis to half health and cause it to overheat much more easily.
    - The multi-tool can also be used for active 'jamming' which will drain 4 resources a second. A small area around the unit will no longer be targeted by turrets, cameras, or commanders. Current commander locks will be lost after 5 seconds inside this area.

    Skills: Skills now become something that improve what the scout is already capable of rather than being class-defining features.

    Enhanced Senses - Works like it does now. Additionally, using the binoculars now targets an area rather than a single target. Additionally, you gain the ability to see enemy mines.

    Silencing - Kill messages are not displayed. Weapons make significantly less noise. Running/walking makes no noise. Muzzle flash dulled significantly.

    Hide - Works like it does now.

    Quick Resupply: The scout now receives all of his ammo the instant he uses an ammo box, instead of piece by piece. Vehicles resupply twice as fast.

    Improved Sprint: The speed bonus for sprinting is now 50% larger.

    Vehicle Jamming: The vehicle will never show up on the map. Do not need to be piloting it for this to work.

    Vehicle Speed: The vehicle gains +20% max speed.


    It accomplishes your goals of a utilitarian combat unit who provides support to his allies through information and jamming. It provides the ability to defeat large numbers of turrets quickly, and group a strike force on a target. It does not include the widely disliked passive semi-active bonus' to allies, such as automatic camera properties. It provides enhanced mobility. It discourages lone-soldier behavior. It provides the ability to specialize in both support and point-man styles while not giving an arbitrary restriction. It does not require a large number of skills to be good at its job. It does not step on the toes of other classes. It requires team support to function. It allows the scout to better be able to breech enemy lines.

    I believe that is all of the goals you wanted accomplished, plus a few complaints.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2009
  13. 0yv47

    0yv47 Member

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    how bout just giving the scout the shotty pistol, but with faster reload?
     
  14. SnowDrakE

    SnowDrakE Member

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    If you mark vehicles with the binocs, everyone on your team should see the current armor for some time, like the armor detection skill.
     
  15. -=SIP=-

    -=SIP=- Member

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    What will happen to the commander targets? Scout targets will only be useful if they are nerved or removed.

    DonMegel:
    What about a multiple choice poll for all new scout features? It could help to find the most wanted features.
     
  16. SnowDrakE

    SnowDrakE Member

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    What about Commandertargets getting a timeout? And a scout would get half timeout, plus a scout squadleader could give that benefit to the whole squad.
     
  17. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    what about they finally go ...

    wallhacks are wallhacks are wallhacks
     
  18. -=]Kane[=-

    -=]Kane[=- Member

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    I like it even less then the MK-2 suggestion, therefore I voted NO
     
  19. Dubee

    Dubee Grapehead

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    I don't like how your basically making him a second rifleman class. I think less focus on killing infantry and more focus on anti-building..

    I do however like how he helps squads with the bigger aura and stuff like that.
     
  20. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    I'm not going to bother explaining why I dislike the ideas, carefully explaining what is wrong with them, the implications of them and other stuff, because I won't get a reply explaining how I'm wrong (possibly because I'm not.).

    But I will point out one thing. The fact that you're sticking with the idea of arty "locking on" is possibly the stupidest idea I could possibly think of. There are other stupid ideas, like Bastard and Martial arts, but whatever, you might aswell spend time working on it because we all know how it will turn out in the end. Either it'll be proven in testing how bad it is, or it'll get pushed through anyway and destroy all the balance progress anyway until it has to get set back.
     

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