Mortar: Damage and Flight Time (move to Suggestions)

He would not get easily picked off if done it right, yeah sure deploying in the open will get you killed but behind cover you will survive. The splash i mainly meant damge, we could nerf the push effect.

The main purpose wiht the change would be to stop the noob tube using and use the mortar with teamwork as a mean to bombard enemies from a distance and kill enemy dug in infantry.

Also he would then have to use artillery feedback or have firends spot for him obviously, or take the risk at deploying in the open.

 

Artillery feedback is only usefull for newbies, if you play long enough
you dont need teamwork to hit stuff with a indirect firing weapon.
I never use artillery feedback when I drive an arty tank but usually
end up having the most kills with that thing.

 

So Mortars are only fun because you can kill stuff?

I just want Grenadiers to play like a different class, not with some one-trick weapon that makes them act like Riflemen.

Ever since I started playing Empires I've always felt the Mortar is the most ridiculously implemented thing in the game.

I have no problem dying. Dying to a Rifleman who outguns me. Dying to a Scout who sneaks up on me. Dying to an Engineer who I underestimated.

But dying to a Grenadier who pops out of cover for a split second, throws himself down on a knee and one hit kills you is not fun or interesting for gameplay.

I love the idea of a deployed Mortar with higher arc and more splash/damage against infantry and buildings. You've still got a pistol for close quarters and an RPG for vehicles (though they need more damage), making it a well rounded but not a straight forward class.

 

Every fucking shooter is fun because you can kill stuff(kills are not the only reason the mowtar is fun). But like I said it's not fun hiding behind cover not seeing what your shells are doing. When your dealing with explosives you want to see your result. Being mobile is key to staying alive and having fun. Making a free mini arty tank is a horrible idea. It ruins balance and fun. Make it have high splash no damage and you will push enemy's around for others to kill. Remove push and you get nothing. Remove push and add more damage and you got an OP weapon. Deploying the mowtar is crouching. You want to make it so he can get picked off.

Everyone always talks about a gren hoping around a corner and shooting.. Every fucking class does that. Its not just grens. The only difference is the gren has to crouch before he can shoot and if he misses hes screwed. Currently grens can only kill infantry because of 2.23. This has all been said a million times. The person who killed you once with a mowtar would of kill 5 times with a rifle.

It's funny you and sirex both listed your favorite class as rifleman. I can see why you would be pissed getting killed and want to have it changed so its easier to kill them. But I am showing you how these changes will make it less fun or OP.

 

give me a higher splash radius / deployable mortar and
I show you why people say that ww1 was one of the
most brutal wars ever.

 

You're right, killing stuff is fun. Maybe if you don't like the role that the mortar should fill, you should stop playing as a grenadier. If you like strategically killing stuff at a distance, mortar should be that weapon. If you like killing stuff up close and personal (like you are, apparently) then you should be playing as a rifleman. I'm not flaming either side, they're just different playstyles.

Since we're talking high splash high damage, no, it isn't overpowered. You can literally dodge the thing, because it has to fly for a long time to do that damage. Plus, if you get close, the gren is dead. It is, in a way, the same idea as a sniper. It is a lethal weapon, but only at range. Get personal, and it's worthless.

First off, yeah, every class does that. That doesn't mean they SHOULD, it just means they do. Also, you're trying to downgrade the fact that the mortar is tremendously powerful at the moment at close range, which it shouldn't be. That's the point of this change. Also, the part that they would have killed you five times with a rifle is bullshit, along with the part that they "are only good cause of 2.23". They've been powerful for a while now, it's just that 2.23 has screwed up all the balance. That doesn't mean the mortar shouldn't be changed.

You're very stubborn in that you believe that the mortar should be some kind of close range grenade launcher. That's not what a mortar is for.

 

I would say 95% of my kills with the mowtar are at range 20 feet or more. The shells skip off the ground if you shoot downward. Sure I agree that it shouldn't be a close range weapon. But he's also going to hurt him self and your the one who lets them get that close. The changes you guys suggest will nerf the gren at range(or make it OP depending on the damage/radius). It's a slow ass shell. If your forced to sit down deploy then shoot and wait for it to hit chances are your target is going already be dead or 30 feet the in other direction.

"they are only good cause of 2.23" ? I didn't say that, I said that's the only thing grens can do currently. I don't care about close range mowtars. That's not how I use it. I use it at range and to do that you need to run around a corner shoot off a shell go back behind cover reload and pop out again to see where it lands then change your aim and shoot again. If you deploy out in the open and shoot they will have time to kill you and dodge the shell. If you deploy behind cover your going to be staring at a wall. Yeah that's fun.

An evenlly skilled match up between a rifleman and a gren at any range will favor the rifle everytime. Rifleman have faster traveling bullets, more ammo, faster reload, body armor. It's no contest. Mortars or rifles grenades(whatever you wanna call it) are ANTI INFANTRY. But rifles are better at it.. It's not imba.

 

What are you talking about? I just went over this in my post... The only new thing you said was about him hurting himself, and that's only at point blank.

Hey look! You use it like it's supposed to be used! And it sucks at that! Isn't that the whole point of this thread? Also, so then don't deploy behind cover. I don't really care where you are when you shoot. You can still run up and shoot them in the face, it just won't kill them.

Thanks for pointing out current balance. We're trying to fix that.

 

Stop beeing an arrogant asshole that shows no knowledge about the game, thx.

You wont die from a mortar shell at any range if you dont stand still.
The only situation in which you have no chance is when a mortar shell
hits you (and not the ground at which you stand) at very close range.

That happens like one out of... dunno thirty times.

If you encounter someone that is armed with a mortar in close combat,
start to jump because the damage that he can deal to you when the
shell hits the ground under you wont kill you.
Yes the splash of the mortar is that small that 25 centimeters away
from the center are enough to survive the attack.

 

Rifles are boring to me. I like to blow people up and watch there rag doll bodys fly(ty source engine). Krenzo has always said this game is about fun not realism. And sorry I didn't know you were the one of the people working on balancing this mod.

 

What are you talking about?

If, as a Rifleman, you're just swaying back and forth and hopping around on one foot like a lunatic, NO ONE is going to end up dead because the Rifle needs to be crouching to kill anything, unless they're point blank range (in which case, you can't dodge the Mortars).

Yes, you're right, in a one on one fight the Rifle will win 9 times out of 10. Empires is not a 1 v 1 game, and there will always be a crouching Rifleman to snipe with a Mortar every time you duck out of cover.

 

To shoot a mowtar shell you have to stop and crouch. A rifleman can jump around a corner squat and fire off a burst then run off again. I've seen it done.

Yeah you are correct about it not being a 1 vs 1 game but any one of your teammates can stop that gren from killing you

 

I just don't really get what you're getting at here. The buff is designed to improve the mortar at range, and nerf it at point blank. It isn't the "OH NO NOOBTAR NERF NERF NERF" you seem to think it is.

Quote from myself.

"Since we're talking high splash high damage, no, it isn't overpowered. You can literally dodge the thing, because it has to fly for a long time to do that damage. Plus, if you get close, the gren is dead. It is, in a way, the same idea as a sniper. It is a lethal weapon, but only at range. Get personal, and it's worthless."

Here you made sense. Yeah, most people don't know how to use it. The problem is that the people who do are not using it as a long range weapon, they're using it as a shotgun. Naturally, we've had different gaming experiences. However, the fact is that it IS possible to use it as a shotgun, and that SHOULDN'T be possible. The point of this isn't just to nerf it, it is to give it a buff at where it should be used as well.

Grens are better at infantry at range. The mowtar continues to be effective against turrets and buildings, slightly more so, but not by much.

You can still step out from behind cover to watch the bodies fly, albeit from a distance. I believe you said you're doing this. This is not affected, in fact it gets a slight buff.



Essentially, I'm trying to boil it down to this. The mortar should not be used at short range. It should get a nerf in damage at that, so it is no longer 1 shot kill. It should be used at long range. It should get a slight buff in damage and a buff in radius for that. You generally shoot it from behind a wall, but if you want to shoot it at range, you can still step out and acquire your target. If you dislike that, I'd like to know exactly what part you disagree with. If you hate it because I suggested it, go ahead and hate me. I don't particularly care.

 

Nah I'm not against this particular suggestion because it would make the way I use it more effective. That's my point. I think more people will bitch about it being OP then there is now. Its a good suggestion and something I've even suggested my self a year or two ago. But it would need testing.

The main thing I don't want which was a response to sirex was the deployment. You take the mobility out of the gren and you essential make him a sitting duck. That will kill the only fun thing about this weapon and imo game.

 

Did you mean grens? I don't ever see a rifleman shoot off just one burst then tuck tail and run. You barely have to crouch with the mortar and people who are "good" with it run, jump, crouch, rape you with the ridiculous splash damage of the mortar, jump, hide, reload***, repeat.

***Who the hell says it takes too long for the mortar to reload? It's not too long at all, given the damage you can deal with one "lucky" shot. If your shot is within 5 feet of them you'll kill them completely or enough that pistol sniping them is easy. If you don't like the pistol, reload in the time it takes you to bunny hop and fire again.

 

I think the whole problem with grenadiers and this community is that too many here want to play Empires like it was Team Fortress.

Shoot those people I say, and maybe then we can have a proper Empires being developed.

 

Um...O...K this is about as logical as penut butter samwiches at the "Nut allergys united" Dinna. A moter when fired doesnt simply "Disitigrate" or "Increse in size" in mid air. It is an explosive with a charge, that is in a shell caseing. Also this would be very overpowerd as mortars are currently an overpowred anti everything weapon as it it.

 

Realism isn't important. And part of the reason why the mortar is an anti-everything weapon right now is because you don't have to make high-angled shots. If you had to angle upwards to do full damage, it would generally be less effective against infantry and tanks.

Of course, the RPG needs to be fixed first, but everything's being fiddled with at the moment, so that's probably coming.

 

Fixed

Btw: Why do people keep crying about the mortar and in the same sentence
suggest to make it more powerfull. I guess not a single one of them played
the gren class long enough that he knows what to do.

Ive played Team Fortress quite a bit yesterday and their was that guy
that sniped me out of the air with his soldier-rockets... so do I go to the
TF2 Forums and cry that the rocket is overpowered?

PEOPLE THAT KILL YOU WITH THE MORTAR AT ANY DISTANCE ARE
USUALLY VERY SKILLED, THEY WOULD KILL YOU WITH A TOOTHPICK.
CRYING THAT THE MORTAR IS OVERPOWERED EQUALS WHINING THAT
OTHER PEOPLE ARE BETTER IN EMPIRES THAN YOU, THX.

... and you never die from a mortar shell if you dont let
the grenadier kill you, almost every mortar kill is a kill
cause of the unawareness of the victim.

 

I see rifleman do it all the time. It's done with every class and pistols. It's not right but that's what stamina is for and if you run out of it you can't jump. People do it so they don't get shot. It's not just a mowtar thing.

If you just use team work and have an engineer drop a wall as cover it gives you a huge advantage and makes the gren's shot on you damn near impossible. It's only OP on district 402, but a lot of things are OP on that map. If you know how it works its not hard to avoid or make do little damage.

The mowtar in 1.7 had a shorter reload time, shot farther and did more damage. It got a new model and animation for 1.8(2.0) so that's why people would say the reload is long. And compared to a rifles reload time plus the difference in 1 shell and how ever many is in a clip for the rifle it is slow.

Just use your grenades, keep your back away from walls and use cover and the mowtar won't seem OP. If a gren jumps out from cover and shoots then goes back behind cover toss a nade over there. It's a simple counter.