Let's Make Empires Great Again!

This is exactly what I thought of when I wrote my post. I think anybody who experienced it would understand exactly how good that system felt to play with. Its a hard thing to maintain though - and what ultimately broke the balance completely was when fission went kaput for a few versions.

 

It was kind of a counter system, I recall researching specific things to counter what the other team had, even if it was a slight counter, it made the world a difference.

 

Basically I think that was Trickster's 2nd/3rd(?) revision? Pretty good once the MGs got a small nerf and upgraded-guided was removed because they stacked together on nf heavies too well. (or maybe it was just guided that got a small nerf, or maybe to it's missile agility) - except he broke fission and didn't fix it forever.

At that time tanks felt a lot more vulnerable - vehicle battles had a quicker pace. The first shot mattered and there was less battering ram tactics, more stand offs and hit & runs. If you did get engaged without means of a quick exit or you were outnumbered you were pretty much toast. If I recall correctly mediums would generally last 3-4 volleys of accurate fire before succumbing, heavies not much more.

It was the most interesting the tech tree ever got and it felt roughly OK for balance. Some people couldn't get their head around a few concepts but that was their problem for driving in a very one dimensional way.

Different maps and situations definitely called for different research.

• open maps were the preserve of high RoF DU and Homing, Fission cooled more the faster you went.
• Sieges called for slow coolant tanks with big firepower but they were noticeably vulnerable to smaller or quicker tanks. A couple of LTs would wreck a heavy in short measure if it was out on its own.

As far as the fun of tanking & research strategy goes it was probably the best it's ever been. Weapons and engines felt more distinct than they did before or since. But that didn't stop people as usual jumping on the bandwagon and only pointing out the bad points (though fission engine being broken for months on end did suck).

The tech tree isn't that bad now I don't think, but it isn't that interesting either. I still think people get too easily drawn into believing only one path is viable.
There are plenty of valid research paths, you just need half decent tank drivers to exploit anything besides [HE cannon, Guided/HEMG] which are Easy to use & Versatile. I think it is the versatility that really makes them "standardized" choices now.

 

In a game the other day, a BE com took the time to research Rails and heavies on money. I kept telling him, "Rails are no longer viable, you have to go HE cannon or we lose as BE". Didn't listen, and we lost. Literally, there is not much viability for anything outside the standard research path and it is saddening. Even Harry's reflective DU is not that great compared to the standard for both sides...

There is roughly one other research path, and that is Reflective and ER cannon, but that is about it. Reflective is not good under any maps where you have to be sitting still and is really only good on maps that are wide open with a high speed engine.

 

Huh? Reflective is exactly good for maps where you have to sit still! If you do not have to move much you have an easy time positioning yourself at 45 degrees to a Point of Interest.
I've found to many a persons suprise that Reactive stands up well into the heavy game & BioML has a place.

HE cannon is always going to be #1 cannon because of its versaility owing to its AoE. Same reason why guided has always been OP whenever it has a credible amount of damage. You simply score more hits with those weapons owing to their mechanics. Damage, cycle times, etc are all well and good but they don't well account for the fact that these weapons our perform everything else mechanically by considerable margins.

To be honest if you are only ever fielding 1 type of tank I think your team is doing it all wrong anyway. I'd say support weapons like Nukes & BioML paired with an MG are extremely effective and every squad should have one of those in the late game.

Rails I kind of see as an inferior ER cannon right now. The kick/high RoF combined & particles make it harder to use and it doesn't feel much more powerful to me, but I could be wrong.

There are more viable paths than you make out, though I'm not sure the current player population can make use of it which is a main consideration. Even people who have played for years are confused by years of changes. It is asking alot of new players to get the most out of reflective or regen.

 

I think there is a distinction to be made between what is viable for one person may not be viable for everyone.
As commander you do need to get weapons that everyone can use - which means, guided, homing, nukes, HE & any MG. You have to be trying to miss not to do damage with those weapons and therefore they are good in most situations (with the exception of guided which sucks whilst moving)

I've won 16v16+ rounds that I consider balanced with more diverse research than that though. I'm not saying your suggested build isn't most effective, it is definitely a swiss army knife. But for a decent tank driver it isn't the only game in town.

At any rate I still think the solution to everything begins with both teams having access to Dual Cannon & Dual ML heavies. That way you can make the weapons do whatever you want and have real diversity without killing the balance. Commanders will naturally adjust and you can just nerf anything that is OP without screwing over the game.

HE particularly has/will always be OP because of it's splash - Until you make it a weak anti-vehicle cannon or damn near ineffective against buildings.
What makes Rails weak isn't its damage stats. It has a hell of a kick for something that has such a high RoF.

In any event balance needs to account more for how weapons actually handle than just the damage they can dish out & thats something no-one can test with a couple of people. You'd need to spend some time looking at players new and old and how they get on with particular weapons.

 

Its almost as if the same issues are somehow peristant & particular problems are emphasises by fluctuations in player population.
Damn Liberals.

 

Then I stand by some sort of counter system, we need counters. The current research does not allow for diverse research because there is always one strategy that is the best. Whether it be some weapons are more effective vs others, or varying the cost/weight of armors to reflect this as well, we need SOME variability.

Back between 2.4-2.5 was when it was the sweet spot, you could research any path and have it be viable for a team to win. Now, no one hardly ever touches BIO unless its for BioML, no one touches electrical engineering at all unless you want level 3 turrets. No one gets armor from chem, no one gets weapons really from physics (excluding nukes). Like I said, it is a pretty standard research path hat we need to break. 2.4-2.5 did it great by varying cost/weight of armors and having them be soft counters to certain types of weapons. We need this back.

You're right, hard counters would be OP by definition, but we DO need a countering system to get the hell out of bland old boring research. I see SO many coms now just going the standard path now, even if they are new coms I see them research the same stuff that I do... It makes for a boring game when everyone gets the same old shit.

 

love how we went from "hard counters" to "change it to 3 years ago"

sounds like the only way to make empires great again is to elect trickster

 

This thread was more about bringing back some sort of counter system, not even really hard counters. Bargaining at its finest, Hard Counters was too much to ask for, but counters most people do support.

 

Sgt. Security and a few others were talking about how it does less DPS than ranged and HE and that ranged does 5 DPS more than Rails currently. (Although, rails overheat and dont allow spare weapons to be mounted).

 

Rail does 5 DPS more than Ranged, but rail is inferior in terms of everything else (weight, heat per sec, explosion radius and even capacity)

In 2.8.0 rail will be dealing 20 more DPS than ranged.