Is Flag 3 on Escort too tough for BE?

are you kidding? firstly, I'm talking about turrets on the ledge behind the flag. and if you're SERIOUSLY suggesting that on a game where NF has 8+ angry bastards trying to kill you that you will have time to sit and nadespam those, I think you'll be very lucky.

I'm aware of using nuke tanks or other tanks with big cannons. I'm not disputing that it's theoretically possible. but in practice, as I have seen time and time again, it's just not practicle to get any tank down those side routes long enough to survive the ML's and grenadiers, long enough to kill the turrets and win. im not talking about average joe's, I've seen many a clan player go there and die.

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the sort of solution that I would propose would be that the walkway is on the left devided into two peices ,with one side with a crate making it slightly higher, meaning that you can only jump from the NF end to the end which both people have a ladder enabling them to climb up. something like that would be excellent.

alternatively, why not have a tunnel going under the flag so that infantry can approach the flag from two directions.

 

Ohhh, turrets on the ledge.

Easy. Get a guy who knows the map to fire some artillery support :D there are 2 sweetspots on the map that can hit that area from long range without any risk to the driver :D

And any turrets out in the open can be dispatched of with a hit-and-run tactic with a nuke tank.

As a tip, I should tell the best way(I found) to get the 3rd flag.

Ok, Make sure everyone is moving together in 1 group to the flag, with an APC in the back, and a nuke tank in the front. Also, have an arty cannon giving support to suppress the inf and turrets. The nuke tank will move up, with inf behind. The tank will fire it's nukes to keep the NF inf down, Then the inf make a rush for the flag, they all might die, but as long as the flag is down, you've won the flag.

It's best to have the BE inf 3/4's riflemen, and 1/4 engineers with revive. It's a rush, so you need heavy hitters and guys to save the dead from having to respawn in the back.

I will work if done correctly, but you need everyone to work together. It's alot easier than hoping for 1 guy to make his way through.

 

Arty = bad
I would like to see some rooftops for BE.

 

Those flags are do or die flags, generaly if you loose those; you will loose all momentum and BE will just roll over you...

It is possible; as currently on escort it is easy to breach through the flags and by the time the tickets run out to cap the last flag...

I think it's fine; a fast footed rifleman or engineer can cap flags so fast it isnt funny...

All you have to do to cap those flags is rush in all at the same time; including sevral tanks. It is not that difficult; it just takes team coordination; instead of lone deatmatch we have generly going on...

That flag is also one of the hardest to defend. How? you might ask? You got BE coming from 3 sides including a bottleneck that prevents counter rushing... This flag is what usualy decides the game; depending on how long you can stand on this flag will determine if you wasted enough time in order for BE to loose...

 

I were on that kind of game. We had 3 nuke tanks with superb equipment, apc and rushed first two flags within two minutes or so. We got to the third flag and BAM! we stopped there and couldn't get any farther away no matter how hard we tried. Grenadiers just kept shooting from the edges of the canal with their mortars end of any tank very quickly when shot above to the top rear armor.

 

Arty = within game mechanics.

Use them, and quit whining. If you win, you WIN!
if you lose, then your efforts were wasted. Play to win!(within game boundries)

 

OK, i hate to sound patronizings, but thats probably what im gonna do : )
your going about this completely the wrong way.
Play as NF, its really not that fun anymore on escort as it used to be.

It gets to a point where at least a 1/4 of the time you spawn your killed by a nuke within the minute. Ive had times where its been much, much more than that. Its so frustrating /grrrrr...

So y, i ask, do you want to make it easier to cap that particular flag? the only one which is keeping the BE team from over running and ending the map in minutes?

the best solution for escort.
put in the simplest possible terms.
Get rid of nuke tanks, add more passageways.
Possibly use a variant on the current door system, so that it forces you to use infantry before you can move the vehicles forward at a certain point. (a halfway mark)

that way, you get the best of all worlds
BE
- get the tank advantage,
- dont get stuck at that flag (because its replaced with the door thingy)
- they get the added entertainment factor of having to fight to cap the flag, or hit the switch that opens the door to let then use there vehicles past a certain point.

NF
- get to have fun again and not spam die from nukes
- have the challenge of fighting tanks, but in an entertaining, not frustrating way
- still have to keep the tide of tanks back (one problem here with mine spammage however, mabe prevent them being layed in the new door area?, if that possible i don't know : ))
- get to fight to defend the switch. (obviously : ))


i reckon this adds an entire new level to the errrr... level (ha ha ha ha, get it :D )



and on a different note:
some advice

errr...nukes have so much splash dmg, that im surprised ANY one is complaining about this. Keep back, launch a nuke every now and then, let the infantry do the rest : ) that way its fun for both sides. You don't have to be Rambo with your tank. if you like the no skill killage of a nuke, then this is the best method.

 

Long post is looooooong.

It seems to me that the fact that the gameplay hinges largely on the number of players is an intrinsic problem. With a small number of players NF gets overpowered easily and the players on that team generally have a miserable time, and with a large number of players the BE team gets creamed and generally have a miserable time. The vehicles and the way they're implemented in this map throw a huge curveball for the game mechanics.

I really don't see any way to fix this without a bit of coding, which generally isn't a great solution if it's for one single map. A system of restricting in-game resources would have to be created which allows a mapper to adjust technology and class balances based on player count or other variables. With a low player count the BE team would have the more powerful chassis and technologies restricted, and with a high player count the NF team would be limited in the number of engineers and/or grenadiers on their team.

As far as I can see, the problem stems from two things. The first is the asymmetric arrangement of the teams. The map is designed to put one team on the defensive and one on the offensive, and achieves this by allowing one team access to certain resources (vehicles) while denying them to the other team and by allowing one team to push the lines while the other is only allowed to hold them. This, however, is a desired effect, and is mostly countered by the timer and the layout of the level. The second is that the resources given to the BE team, vehicles, are fixed in number and power. No matter how many players there are in the server, BE gets two vehicles and whichever technology they choose to outfit them with. Now, two massive, well-armed tanks against four soldiers on foot has quite a predictable outcome, especially when if one vehicle is destroyed, another can just be cranked out. Two massive, well-armed tanks against sixteen soldiers on foot also has a predictable outcome, despite the fact that vehicles can keep being cranked out.

At high player counts, the vehicles effectively become moot. The effectiveness of a team of players increases exponentially as more people are added, but the number of tanks allowed on the field at once is fixed. Now, there's still a bunch of guys on foot on the BE team, and you would think that would even it out, but keep in mind that the map is engineered to give the NF team an advantage in order to balance out the fact that the BE team has access to tanks. Like I said, though, tanks cease to be significant with large amounts of players, and the game becomes biased towards the NF team. Similarly, at low player counts, the NF team can get steamrolled, as the BE team has access to technology that can simply make the defensive capabilities of the map not matter.

The easiest way I can see to fix this is to make the game dynamically adjust the resources based on certain conditions. Having tech become limited at low player counts, or unlocked fully at high player counts, as well as limiting the NF team at high player counts (through restricting turrets in some way or enforcing certain class ratios) and giving them full resources at a low player count seems like the first step in fixing this problem. Keep in mind, however, that this is just one map, and that it might be wiser to either axe it or totally redesign it.

 

I don't think some of you quite understand how much escort has been changed since 1.0.

In the first version, the NF only had 100 tickets, AND there was no 1-ticket rule.
You respawned and you were fucked! Not to mention that the lag was horrible and the reviving was crap.

Back then, it was hard as fuck to win as NF. The people who know what I'm talking about, know how easy escort really is now. If you weren't part of this, you really missed out :D

You guys gotta understand that teamwork is what changed the way this game is played.

And now we are just talking about how hard the 3rd flag is? It's been nearly the same for the past few versions, and we've still found it to be fun.

All you have to do is work as a unit. And if your team sucks ass, then lead them to victory. This map is what helped me learn the ropes of the game. No comm in the sky, but instead you're giving orders over the mic to players, as another soldier. This is what made me love the game so much, and what helped me understand leadership on the ground.

This map will FORCE you to act as a team, and the better one wins, regardless of hardware.

And it pisses me off to see people complain about this map(or the game in general. If you are not winning, TRY HARDER. give 110%...fuck it, give it 500%!

and if you can't adapt, then you'll die out. Survival of the fittest :D

 

I would like to see research become available as the round goes on. BE starts out with only AFVs, APCs, and Jeeps. Say, 5 mins into the round they get med tanks. Then 10 mins they get arty, and 15 mins heavy tanks. Of course, not quite as simple as that, but you get the idea :D

 

Oh man, I hear you there. 1.0 players are generally the meanest, toughest and hardest Empires you'll ever have played against. Playing as NF on escort (and winning!) was the biggest achievement you could have.

On-topic, reply to Dumpster Fox:

Oh lawd is dat sum inbuilt featurez [sic, of course]

The problem is that emp_escort doesn't have an actual refinery in it anywhere (or at least I've never seen it), so that variable is rather useless. Put a refinery or two in there, preferably in the background scenery, hidden, so they wouldn't get ninjad and you're in business. Now, I already hear you say "But then this will be the same for other maps aswell! D:" !

Well, no. There's a 'maps' folder in your cfg folder for something. Want more reinforcements, resources or male penis in your map? No problem! Just put in the variable in the correspending map cfg and you're set.

 

Bodrick: there is one entity setting that makes teams auto-research random stuff..
That way every time that map is played it will be slightly different :D

 

Escort has that, but currently it has everything researched when the map loads. Or the research is uber-fast. The resources are from the flag.

 

yeah just remove taht all research thing and make it research a new research every ... minutes
The resources are fine I guess.. They can get 1 tank every 2-5 minutes

 

I led a couple of teams to victory on several occasions, myself(smug, much?). The first time I won, I was convinced it was very possible, even with a newbish team(as long as EVERYONE worked like single unit). Next couple of times, I figured out a couple of nice strategies in order to get the team a couple of tickets saved.

It was a nice addition to the game when they added the 1 ticket rule, and when reviving was fixed.

I just wish the newer players could experience what we experienced though. :D

That will grow some hair on your e-chest, and make them realize how easy they got it.

 

shouldn't arty be last? it can hit nearly anywhere on the map from anywhere, while still being safe. a heavy has to be exposed. arty should be available last as a desperate last act.

 

haha, headshot, i got a lot of respect for you

you sound like one of those war hardened vetrans, its bloody cool.

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what I was going to say, is leave the flag where it is, but move the spawn for NF back a bit, so when you kill one NF, he doesn't appear on you're ass 10 seconds later. but then people have already recognised that the map can be quite BE bias with low players

so why not have a system like the 4th flag, where there are several exits to the spawn. the quicker exit could have a button somewhere in the underground section that is level with the flag, allowing BE to close it when they get to that section.

also, I'm 100% behind the idea of changing the abilities of the teams as the player count changes, that's an awesome idea. I don't personally like the idea of limiting players classes. but a great idea would be adjusting spawn times for NF.

 

*cough*
brown nose
*cough*

lol :D
jokes

keeping people from getting there as quick is not the answer (underline)

i still think you should restrict tanks to that area, because as i and a few people who have posted before me seem to think, its the only real front to stop the BE team from steam rolling.

If you stop using tanks, then they wont be using gren as much will they? simple as.
therefore i propse as in a earlier post of forceing BE to not use tanks then. (through the door system)

or another answer is simply not to rely on tanks to get past that certain section.
constantly sending more and more into that bottleneck and then getting frustrated when they die is NOT a realistic thing to do;
Its a childish thing to do:p

 

it just reminded me of this:

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the flag. Over time I've seen wins and losses go both ways.

The NF does have an edge with the ledges and the close spawn point, but those haven't stopped BE from capping it in the past. It's hard, yes, but not impossible.

Teamwork is the key and the team that does it best simply wins.