I think the game may be too mentally challenging for it's playerbase.

Actually if you could possibly review all the empires logs I guarantee BSID plays more NF than BE. Escort really brings up our NF quota. I honestly believe you are making shit up now if you said you constantly see us stack or talk shit. We don't talk shit about "pwning", we just let our actions and game play speak for us.

When you say BSID idiots, I and anyone else who reads that statement can infer that you were speaking as the BSID clan as a whole. If you were not, you would have just said some of the BSID members that are idiots. Thats like me saying CW idiots or JPL idiots because I think one or two of them are idiots.

I love posts like these, it sets BSID out to be some sort like the Imperial Empire for Empires. I mean what would this game be without one clan or person you hate. We are the New England Patriots of Empires. People love to hate us. Its fun being the bad guys. Everyone hates you and it just makes your clan that much more of a brotherhood. Having something greater to bond to. So please bring on as much hate as you can dish out. It just fuels our competitive spirits. Not like we need any more though.

 

I complain about the game because it isn't fun when you're losing. I've commented on this before but it doesn't appear to be registering. If you're losing, your tanks are worthless against theirs, you're vastly outnumbered in most situations, your team doesn't support you, and you therefore spend about 10 minutes doing nothing but running and dying, which is less than entertaining.

I will draw some comparisons between some other games with related concepts, first off is battlefield, which has large teams fighting over points on a map with vehicles and infanty, it also has a class system.

Now I don't really care if I win or lose in this game, it's nice to win, but losing isn't irritating, and the gameplay is more or less the same regardless of which side you're on. Your weapons work equally well against their tanks, and you can do things like ambush an enemy vehicle group with some mines and your pilum even if you're losing, which makes the game enjoyable to play regardless of your team. Teamwork helps, and occurs quite often, but it doesn't have to be organised teamwork. Battlefield is a collection of self-serving interests which collect together to produce teamwork. Medics want to heal you because you can A: Protect them, and B: They get points for it. We have this in empires, and you will note that the engineers are quite good at that, assuming they've bothered to read the manual and know how to do it. The game does not ask any more than that of you, and everyone knows how to play it.

Next up is Natural Selection, this game has the commander playing a role similar to that of empires, it also has asymmetrical teams, which empires also has to a degree.

NS has a very simple player interface, it consists of either 'recieve gun, kill aliens' or 'evolve into bigger alien, kill marines'. It has complexity, but the game is playable to some degree without knowing it, and there is a quite intuitive hint system, as well as a concise manual with greater detail available to those who wish to read it. The entertainment value resides in the players being given a series of options with which to govern their play style, which is something empires is still lacking in. Marines have to request their guns from the commander (but they're making it your decision in NS2, and the combat gamemode is popular for likely the same reason, self-directed advancement), while the aliens can choose their form, the aliens especially have a number of different tactical choices to make, do they rush up to the marines as a skulk trying to dodge fire, or do they find a niche to hide in and drop down when they aren't expecting it? Either way, all tactics are equally effective, and they are player governed. With empires, you have the commander making the decisions for the players. I know the players can choose to be one of four classes and alter their weapons, but the real important element of the game is getting heavy tanks and killing the enemy with them, which is something the players have no control over, so they can lose by no fault of their own.

The crux of both games and how they differ from empires however, is that both games have the players functioning more or less autonomously. NS has players following the commander's move orders, but they do that because it's in their immediate best interests, because that's where all the support is going to be, and because there is going to be fighting there, and because they won't last two seconds without the help of the rest of the team. In empires, you might need someone to go and build a ref in the middle of a firefight and keep it maintained, but nobody will want to do that because it's not fun, and they don't get anything from it apart from a couple of points every minute. Or you might require half a dozen people to go grenadier to stop a heavy tank, but nobody will want to do that when they can get more points as a rifleman camping the enemy APC, while five of the six grenadiers won't get any points whatsoever for shooting at the enemy tank.

The game requires teamwork, but does not provide it by giving the players incentives. And if you don't have that teamwork, the game becomes unplayable. So I can only suggest that you either remove the dependcy on teamwork, or find some way of making players use it.

I don't hate your clan, I don't care about your clan, but I do hate idiots, and I see a lot of idiots and most of the people I see wearing the BSID tag are among them. Therefore I cannot do but assume this reflects the actual makeup of your clan. There are two or three players who I see playing a lot who are good players, they communicate and work together, but the rest of the ones I see are utter clods.

When I post something, I mean it as is, don't try to derive extended meaning from it because I don't do subtlety.

 

Well, first off, removing the dependancy on teamwork isn't going to happen because you'd effectively destroy the entire concept that Empires is built upon.

Secondly, there ARE ways of making players use teamwork. Joining a squad gives a free skill slot, shooting people as a squad gets you kill assists, squad auras, etc.

I do agree that a lot can be improved on the "tooltip"-side. Pop-ups and infobars and such.

So if I see five black people stealing stuff, I cannot do but assume that this reflects the actual makeup of everyone who has a dark skin? I'm sorry Chris, but that's downright silly.

 

silly is mixing up genetic personunaffected issues and a choosable group of ppl sharing same spirit / interests / mind style

 

I know that.

I know that, too. I was pointing out that more of these are neccesary in the areas where teamwork falls down.

There are marginally more black people in the world than there are BSID clan members. If I see 2 or 3 clan members who are competent, and 5 who aren't, then I can reasonably assume that the clan has at least a 1:1 idiocy:competency ratio. As you increase the size of your subject base, your sample size must increase to reflect it, but if you have a small subject base, a smaller sample size is required to make a statistically confident decision.

 

What gives players incentive in NS to build refineries?

I don't see the point you're making as there is enough incentive in empires, if not more, to work together. You have squad auras, squad skills. You can unlock your own skills. Refineries give you resourecs that let players build their own stuff, following the commander's orders works just like in ns, infact commander can give you attack orders and drop biuldings that aid you as the player, not him, all the buildings do, directly. Building together lets you get the building up quicker, makes it that much easier etc etc.

I could make you an essay of a few pages on how there is more than enough incentive to work together. Most of the people are all new and the only way to improve as a whole in teamplay is to learn together. If you're 10 steps ahead of eevryone else and get pissed off at them, you're the one supposed to take the lead and help them get at the same level of play as you would want them to be.

How? Get a mic and go commander, thats how you start off.
I have helped so many newbies back in 1.x and it's definitly fun to help others, especially if you see that most of these people that were newbies back in my time are full grown players now.

The problem and main difference between NS and Empires is the steep learning curve, the difference between a player that knows the game and one that doesn't is huge, you need to take that in mind and either filter out the servers and people you play with, or get used to it and help the people out.

If you hate the commander, go commander yourself, I know exactly how frustrating it is to not be able to play a good game as infantry because no one knows how to comm. But you never saw me bitching even though I used to comm every single game to ensure a good game. People afterwards will always want you to comm and if you play enough they will trust your knowledge of the game and guess what, might listen to your teamwork strategies and work together.

 

In NS the refineries are on the way to other areas, and don't take very long to build, and you always have other people with you, so it's not an inconvenience, trying to convince someone to go and build the ref on the hill somewhere while everyone else goes and gets killed by the enemy with the new BE SMG2 is kind of difficult, in fact it's why I'm replacing as many refs as I can in my map with flags, and putting them in areas you will want to go to.

I have a mic and I do command, but I end up shouting at people for not reading the manual (I will answer questions about things not in the manual, but if you can't be bothered to read it I will simply shout at you.) and I hate it because of that. But then if I don't command I get some idiot in the chair who doesn't know how to do anything. I either command and get annoyed at the team, or play as the team and get annoyed at the commander.

The end result is having to spend three or four games shouting at people to do as I tell them before they start to trust me, or it goes the other way and nobody listens to me in the first place and we lose, then I get blamed for it, repeat ad nauseum. I don't enjoy teaching people things they should be able to pick up themselves, I can even tolerate people being bad at the game as long as they can do basic things like build things, and as long as they obey my orders without question, but nobody does that either.

Occasionally I do get a good team, but then I get voted into commander every game, and I don't particularly enjoy it, because when you have a good team it's far more fun to play on the ground, using some of the weapons you don't normally get to because you're trying like hell not to die.

 

Some refineries are indeed a bit out of the way, but usually the refineries are your main points of interest, the only other place would be the enemy's base.
THe proportions are massively different from NS and IMO thats a good thing. Ever since I've been playing emp I've slowly been starting to dislike the small corridors of NS and it's gameplay. It's easier to have a refinery somewhere in the middle of nowhere than all of them being placed in the main chokepoints. (ns)
Just make sure you get them at start and if your team can't be bothered to rebuild them, keep screaming ;o

 

I think last match I used the phrase 'Sickening incompetence' at least once, and said everything in a condescending tone.

I like NS because it's level design is excellent, and I like the way it handles the weapons, they all work quickly and effectively, which is a problem with the ironsights system in empires because you have to wait a second before you can really use your gun, and it also makes SMGs ridiculously good at close range, which I suppose is intentional but it's irritating nonetheless. The pray and spray technique works far too well sometimes.

 

I think ns forces too much teamwork, I prefer empires teamwork, theres more choice, more freedom and more awesome stuff to play with :D

 

There's more choice, but unfortunately the mod relies on teamwork at it's core, but you still get people who don't use it. That's what I mean about requiring teamwork but not providing it. If you need teamwork then you have to force it.

 

You wanna know how to do it? Find a person willing to volunteer their server and password it. Name it "EMP_VETSONLY! go to www.urlhere.com for password" Then, provide forums in which only veterans can join, wherein they will find the password (all noobs don't know how to use forums where as anyone who does use forums, is an adept player).

Only problem is: it will have a tough time getting and remaining full.

 

People tend to make friends with those whom they feel superior.
NEWB: A new guy who is trying to learn and listens and reads and does their
very best to improve.

NOOB: A new guy who wants everything handed to them and want to have
their noses wiped like we are their mommy.

CW has the right idea of setting up a server for new players to get on and
learn. The unfortunate thing is that sometimes guys who are not good players
will get on there to feel good about beating up on the new guys.......

The only real answer is to have private servers for the old timers and give
membership by invite.

Who would like to foot the bill for a private server for the "Boys"??
Since I still play like a newb I will go to any server open and have fun.....

 

I believe the people at tacticalgamer.com have perfected a teamplay system in a public enviroment. Maybe we should tell them about empires...

 

Everyone was new to the game, and I didn't read the wiki or the readme. I feel that most people, just want to get straight into the game. I mess around on a server with a low amount of people, did command in a empty server to learn the research tree. I only start this game a few weeks ago, and I've gotten a very good grasp on it now.

But that first week, had a lot of 'wha' moments. Like what gun is best, how the skill system work, what engine should I put in this tank, tons of small questions and no one answer them. I figure it all thru testing, it myself. Heck, you hear all the experience players argue or tell the commander what to do. Instead of grabbing the guy asking about ammo, and having him move to the front lines.

What I do now, is if I'm not the commander, and there new players on the server. I make a squad, tell them to join it. While newer plays don't understand everything in this mod, they still understand how a FPS works and they tend to be better squad mates then more of the 'experience players'. Due to they're more willing to take orders.

 

You are whining about Empires comparing it to NS; NS had you running in what is an equivelent of 5 by 5 veichle factories. Why did people build refineries in NS? To get that new gun; even if it is out of the way. In Empires you build that ref to get that shiny new tank or that Armory thats supposed to be on the front line not at base...

In pub play; you can go solo no problem; you can single handedly push the game in favor of your team in Empires, I've seen it done, so there you go "Personal Insentive to be awesome". Sometimes too lone wolf? That means your commander is eating donuts in the CV instead of actualy ORDERING the troops around...

The ultimate expression of Empires to some extent is Duststorm; go anywhere you please; build a base almost anywhere, and attack from anywhere... Then there are more linear maps like Canyon and Cyclopean; if every front is not on fire; that means the enemy can push through the less active one and break the enemy; which is usualy done by the commander ordering a strike... yes the commander should ORDER his troops around, not just be the teams bitch...

BSID being assholes? Hell, I think its not so much as them being assholes as them being lovable in their own way. And I mean thats coming from me who was at their necks for a bit in the past ;;
Sure they might have been asshats WAY in the past; but Im glad to say thats all over with, and now they are just fun to play against because you know they wont be tards humping the armory for 5 mins... Hell even Headshot grows on you; sure he swears and screams so much that your ears bleed; but that just gets the team moving along. Also its fun to do things that will make him scream (While on the other team, and sometimes on the same team ), and just imagining what he is saying puts a smile on your face

Chris bury your knives and give everyone a chance; get to know them more then just face value...

 

Didn't you read? I said an immediate incentive to do things, not a long term one. Immediate incentives are more rewarding to the player because it gives them an advantage immediately after performing the task, and it's solid, you know that performing that task will produce a certain effect, whereas it's quite possible that building a refinery would result in nothing more than the commander prattling it away on crap research so you get crap tanks, where's the reward? I also pointed out the validity of my comparison between this and NS, please read my posts more carefully.

I also pointed out that ordering people around does nothing when they don't listen to your orders, which is what happens 90% of the time when I command. I'm sure I said all this before, or it was fairly easy to deduce.

I do give people chances, and I'm finding that far too often they are being idiots. If you wish to be not-an-idiot then I'd be delighted. I don't care about people beyond their ability to not-be-an-idiot, or lack thereof.

 

I agree and disagree. Like any game, there a good and bad matches. Bear in mind 2.0 was a huge influx of players. I'd prefer to have noob players than no players at all.

I've had some very good matches - the commander really needs to work to motivate the team, and him having a mic and a respectable voice is very important.

 

Got those, doesn't help.

 

There's nothing more irritating than a total noob who won few games and spams the mic with retarded orders or complains when I say that this research isn't best. They usually whine much more if you try anything more than what they saw in their 5 games.

Normal noobs are fine they learn sooner or later. What we need is a system of tips like in NS (cl_autohelp)

Manual: well we should follow NS' example: we should make a quickstart manual that takes up to 2-3 minutes to read. Most of the players don't have to be commanders and that's possible to do. It should open in web browser after installing the game.