[Considering] Suggerstions for increasing teamplay and organised play!

Discussion in 'Rejected' started by Sirex, Dec 21, 2008.

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  1. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    Okay so i think one of the mayor problems with this mod is that coordinating the teams forces in a simple manner don't work. Ideally the commander should be able to direct the team relatively easily to the best. But this don't work, becouse the order issue method is buggy and wrong and that the players aren't encourage that much to join squads. This results in that commander get somewhat boring sence there are no squads to issue commands to, and then you don't get the forces were you need them and you get reduced to a building servant for the team. And also as i said players need more encitment to be in squads.

    So first i have some "organise" suggestion which needs to be working to have a chance to coordinate the team.

    1. More commands. The commander should have the commands like "mine", "defend", "ambush", "infiltrate", "set up stronghold" and lots of commands to be able to more direct the squads to what he want.
    Also information should be able to be given this way, like i am going to set up a base here, so the team knows about it and can act accordingly.
    More commands for what the classes can use! Like the "set up stronghold" would be more directed to engineering, and the "mine" for grenadiers. But still a squad assignment, the rest of the squad covers the member that is the class that can carry out the task ordered.

    2. The commander interface needs to be worked up so you can easily order squads without getting bugged down by the mechanics. Right now you can't allways give order to squads for some reason, you can't select them in the squad list all the time.

    3. If a commander orders a squad and the squad leaders accept the order should automatic be transferd to the squad members. Right now it don't, i checked this last night, if the squad leader accept the order it don't get through to the squad members. So you have to manually reorder the order, and then it don't get right were the commander wanted it, so he gives you a new order, and you regive that order and then the commander thinks you are working against him because you reissue commands all the time. This needs to be fixed.


    And we also need some thing to offer players to join squads so the team can be coordinated better.

    1. I think that after you choose team and class when you join a server the squad "page" should also be shown before you spawn, i think that just this simple thing will increase the amount of people joining squads.

    2. Squad commander getting more commands, like "defend" "ambush" "set up stronghold", this will give people more meaning, just getting a move command to a place don't tell you that much what the squad leader wants you to do, then the player might feel that the order is pointless and he goes attacking on his own to get some action.

    3. Also if the commander gives an order to the squad that should be clear to the squad members in a simple fashion, then they will probably feel that the order is vital and becoming more encourage to for fill it.

    4. Also some more bonuses should be added to squads opposed to squadless players, but i can't think of any good/balanced right now :(.


    So what you guys think? I think that these suggestions would increase team play and making everyone feel that they are for filling a vital roll.

    PS.
    5. Oh also on my "organise" point 3, about members not getting order i now think that a way to solve it would be that squad leaders and members can have two orders at the same time, one that they receive from the commander with lets say purple colour which is also relayed to some extend to the squad members. But then the squad leader can still issue his own orders which will appear as green (now i am talking about the way points markings).
    This will allow the squad to get first an general idea what the squad is supposed to do, but also allows the squad leader to give following local move orders to direct the squad to the position were he feels he will solve the order best. And also keeping the accepting and denying order part left.

    Example Commander orders squad alpha to defend a choke point, he gives the defend command, thus waypoint, to the choke point. Then the squad leaders sees a cliff close by so he orders his squad up that cliff with move orders and the final command being a defend command. Thus the whole squad still sees the commanders defend order waypoint that is at the chokepoint but understands that squad leaders wants us to have fire at the choke point from the cliff.

    And in an offensive example it could be that the commander wants you to attack an area, but the squad leader wants to flank, thus he gives local move orders to position his troops to be able to flank the attack objective given by the commander.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
  2. Lis

    Lis Member

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    Some interresting ideas

    Also it would be interessting if you only can play a predefined role.
    For example are there squads who do not have a engineer.

    I also thought about a predefined class numbers in a single squad. The problem is that the game gets boring really fast, like day of defeat.

    But: A command like regroup forces the players to regroup at the squadcommanders location. Some sort of autopilot is enabled and they can't control their own avatars until a enemy is near to them.

    Another feature is that if you ask for ammo or health supplies, a direction arrow (like the one showing the squad members) appears and tells you where the nearest class is located, that you have requested.
     
  3. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    About the predefined bit i think a better solution is that in the squad page that you can see what the other players are for classes, and that you also can do this in the in game floating squad list in the top left corner that we have, yust add an icon to each player.

    Hmm the autopilot would probably be to excessive and can be dangerous if you have spawned at a different place then the squad leader. I think the solutions should be more encouring then forcing.

    I like the arrow idea!
     
  4. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    Guys what do you think?
    The double order system i think would be great.
    And also adding more commands for the commander and squad leader is a no brainer.

    But just adding the squad page to be viewed after you choose your faction and class i think is vital to add, and hardly difficult for the devs to implement.
     
  5. Beerdude26

    Beerdude26 OnThink(){ IsDownYet(); }

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    These are some good suggestions that may prove in handy when reworking the Commander system.
     
  6. GoodGame

    GoodGame Member

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    I agree with adding more commands in the menu. The commander should also have the option of kicking a squad leader from the leader slot (automatically promoting the #2 member of the squad to squad leader).

    It'd be nice if the squad leader had like a formation command, like a Madden playbook, which automatically gave the squadmembers their spots in the formation (as the green circle thingie, possibly made semi-transparent) and continuously updated.

    But mainly a lot of problems are solved if the commander and squad leaders use microphones though. Possibly it should be a server option flag to require a mic if playing those positions?
     
  7. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    Yes being able to kick bad squad leaders is a good idea. A formation tool would be good, but it think it gets to hard, especially when peopel are respawning all over the place.

    I think that my dual order waypoint system will help forfill what you are trying to do whit formations. Yeah mics are good, but more orders makes it more clear, and reduces radio chater, the commander needs the radio net.

    But the thing that needs to be implemented ASAP is that the squad page shows when you join a server before you spawn.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2008
  8. Maxaxle

    Maxaxle Member

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    Organize:
    1. YES!
    2. What do you mean by that?
    3. YES!!!
    4. I thought something like that was already in effect...
    Add:
    1. Developers, if you're listening...DO IT!
    2. YES! Wait, did you already say that?
    3. Umsureokay.
    4. Yeah!
     
  9. Deltah

    Deltah Member

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    To be honest with you, i think the number of squad's should be lowered. theres all those squad's with weird ass names way down the list. Having more than 7 squad's has people going into there own squads and then theres like 10 squad's with 1 or two people in them.. Another thing that could increase squad tactics and things like that is having specific rolled squad's. heres my idea on 7 squads.

    Alpha- Combat Squad : squad points for kills+ combatish perks(Damage,ammo,accuracy,health shit

    Bravo- Combat Squad: Squad points for kills+combatish perks(Damage,ammo,accuracy,health shit


    Charlie- Recon squad: Squad points for saboing and calling out REAL targets, not just clicking+Speed and stamina perks, arty

    Delta- Support Squad: Squad points for building and deconning and healing+ Heal upgrade, repair upgrade, idk being able to build more walls and turrents and survelience?


    Echo- Assault-Recon Squad: Killing, Calling out targets,saboing+speed stuff, combat stuff, and arty

    Foxtrot- Assault-Recon:Killing, Calling out targets,saboing+speed stuff, combat stuff, and arty

    Zulu- Commander's personal squad.:Point's for building shit comm puts down, doing any other things while in a certain radius of comm(killing,repairing comm vehicle, and just being there)+Supportish perks, and arty

    -----------
    So, zulu squad could bring new ways to comm, basicly making combat-comm'ing actually usefull. But basicly zulu can also be the squad you go into to idle, fuck around, just to get more random style fun out of the game.
    ---
    Also if you have only 7 squads, the number of people per squad should be increased too ten.
    -- to orginize ten people, you could split them up into 2 fireteams, no fireteam leaders, just squad leaders, and if you wished to implement a limited class system, it could be put here. For example, combat squads would have more riflemen and grenandier positions, but a support squad would have no scout's and few rifleman and grens.
    A recon squad would be all scout's and rifleman, and an Assault recon squad would have at least one or two gren slots and whatever. Every squad should probably have 2-4(Unless a support squad) engy positions becouse lets face it, engy is the class that runs the game...

    So, debate my friend's debate!!!!
     
  10. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    I think this will restrict to much things, having fewer all around squads like now would increase flexibility.
     
  11. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    it would be nice to have orders given by the commander to be not directed to players or squads

    lets admit it... giving orders to a carefully selected group on a well timed and well prepared moment in the game and then finding out that this group lacks any desire to complete your order is kinda not cool

    so i suggest that the commander in stead of giving orders to others just puts objectives on the map and hud, telling people what needs to be done, then people can fill in these orders as they please, and gain the points for doing so

    increasing the chances of getting things done, and preventing pushing people into a role of play they do not desire to do, while others who do want to help the commander in a more "direct" way can do this

    perhaps also a way for squad leaders to "accept" a mission, as to relay there fellow squads that the vacancy is filled

    for example a commander putting a target marker on the rez node telling everyone who wants it to build it, and a local squad leader accepting the order, showing other squads that it is already accepted by another, and the status of how well they are doing (percentage of it being built)
     
  12. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    I have found that with competent commanders and squad leaders that squads usually go were they are assigned. It is not that hard, you give move commands, and say in the mic as commadner "Alfa go west, Bravo go north." And the Squad leader tell their squads and give local move orders.

    Also by your way it seems that the commander will get less control, it would be better to try to aim for that the commadner by mechanics should have peopel that are engouraged to follow orders.
     
  13. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    Okay since the Dev actually seems to have reading capabilitys compeared to the old ones i will bump this upp for greater justice. I was under the impression that you wouldnt go through the organsie suggestion and only look at new ones? If you indeed are you could ignore this bumb and look at it when you feel like and i accept that i accidentalt and messed up.

    The main concept that i want is the dual order system
    That means that the squad leader would have his own seperate waypoint marker, mabye a static color for all commands like purple or something else color idea top seperate it form the commanders waypoint.

    The goal with this is that the commander can give a order at large, like defend this area, attack here like for example on isle as BE the comm might place an attack order for squad Alfa to the south east, but then the squad leader would have his own waypoint marker that he could use to give detail move/attack order to guide his squad. And if you don'├Ąt remove the stupid mass wallhax this would allow movement orders and wallhax if we must have wallhax...

    Another great exampel is when you want to defend a chokepoint and the comm gives a defend/movement order to the choke point, but there is a nearby hill/forrest that is better to defend from, so then the Squad leader could guide his squad to the hill/forrest with his waypoint marker and the squad member will still see the comms defend waypoint so they understand the intent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2010
  14. soundspawn

    soundspawn Member

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    Will need new gui, but I like. We need a new GUI anyway.

    Flagged. Thanks.
     
  15. Grantrithor

    Grantrithor Member

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    Empires players are really, really, solid. there are the noobies, then in the middle are the actual team players, and in the end are the rambo vets that either don't do what the commander want or just talk all round about senseless things. the player classifications are ordered from least skilled to most skilled. The noobies for some reason DO NOT read the chat, unless if it is a good noobie that came from a game where chat was the norm(IE age of empires and other rts) but the noobies do follow anything said on mic chat. seconds, in the middle are the team players who have high scores but modest kills(hence them being team players) These guys read the chat, listen to mic, and even give advice to noob comms, noob players, or the people around them. Lastly are the vets/killwhores, and I dislike these the most because they don't care about teamplay, its all about them, they go in, rambo, and don't rake up madness points because all they do is kill, no teamwork.

    The problem is is that there is a small population of Team players and a large population of noobs and a slightly smaller population of killwhores. It basically means that Empires players NEED to be encouraged to listen to communication because without communication teams fail. Squad leaders need to be encouraged by directing squad members with orders, and squad members need to be encouraged to care what the Squad leader and Team commander are ordering. Everyone needs to be encouraged to read the chat and take in what it says, because they can't rely on a commander with no mic, or even a whole team with no mic.

    So this suggestion is a good suggestion, but how effective would it be? something needing to be implemented to increase organization is have squad leaders able to hear the commander, and the squad leader relays what the commander says. But that sounds crazy and ridiculously hard for anyone that is blind of the chat box or their headphones/speakers. But you can also say that the "double order system" solves it, and I like the idea, but remember, a lot of empires' players are solid.

    Ok this post is getting long but I would wish SS to consider what Deltah said - Having specialized squads with positions to take up (see insurgency's "squad" thing in which there are different positions one can be in).
     
  16. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    Suggestion: Give the comm little icons they can drag onto their display of the world.

    These icons then appear on the team's view, both on their minimap and as icons on their HUD (like the arrows pointing you towards teammates -- so you can see them at a distance through walls and so forth.) There could be icons for "build here", "attack here", "defend here," and so forth.
     
  17. dizzyone

    dizzyone I've been drinking, heavily

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    There was an old suggestion on how to allow the commander to different kind of orders, I still have 2 pictures of how I thought it could be accomplished:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    (note, the pictures are very old, there was no such thing as sabotage)

    It's pretty simple, it's basically a multi level menu, the comm selects either a friendly/enemy unit, and based upon his selection he is able to go through the menu to give more detailed orders.

    For instance, like in the picture, he selects the enemy barracks, from there can choose to give a destroy order, then he chooses to who he would give the order, to either an individual, or maybe all engineers, or a squad, then he decides whether that should be the unit(s) primary or secondary order. The menus could have a lot more options and because of the simplicity of how the menu works it wouldn't become too cluttered (unless you have to start scrolling through a certain sub menu I guess)
     
  18. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    A lot of these things might take too long, they need condensing into single menus. Even the class menu takes far too long to use for your average person.

    But the suggestions are fairly good.
     
  19. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    I prefer something using icons -- the diamonds are too easy to gloss over, since we use them for way too many things. And text would probably be distracting.

    What I'd do is have a button on the comm panel that brings up a little box with a bunch of icons on it; the comm can then drag-and-drop these icons onto the level's terrain, which causes them to appear, ghostly and translucent, on the views and minimaps of their team, the way diamonds do now.
     
  20. zenarion

    zenarion Member

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    Give the some hotkeys too plz:
    Click unit/squad/person to select. Hold A and click to "attack where I click". Pretty simple?
    D to "defend here", which can be context-sensitive, and actually give players with different classes different orders. Engies = build, Grens = mine, Rifles = dig-in, Scouts = fap in corner.

    Squad leaders should be giving orders as "battlestations", "find cover", "attack forward", "nadespam" etc.
     
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