Christmas gifts (Empires 2.11, public script repo)

Discussion in 'News' started by Thexa4, Dec 25, 2016.

  1. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    Yeah but whats the point of upgrading 2 of your 2 slot weapons to 3 slots when you can like NOT do that and just get another missile ( if your BE ) or an MG and have a 10xtimes better trade of?
     
  2. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Oh gee, maybe because a 2 slot weapon is another 60 weight instead of just 20? Nothing stops a player from adding that 2 slot on top of having 3 slot weapons either. 2 3-slot weapons and an anti tank mg is the same as 3 2-slot weapons(not including anti tank mgs) too.

    It's not even 10 times better damage, don't make huge numbers like that. It gives false impressions.
     
  3. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    Im overdramatizing because 3 slot weapons are actually complete shit.

    a 2 slot weapon adds so much more damage though

    like ima do the math and either get corrected bymyself or be right

    fuck I did the math but my internet went out so when I Tried to post it failed.

    Anway conclusions-> ranged canon is not worth getting 3 slot
    HE canon is the worst 3 slot canon efficiency wise

    Plasma canon and rail gun are worth it
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  4. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    This is saying 2 slots are complete shit by the fact that 2 slots are weaker. You do realize this?
     
  5. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    2 slots weapons are shit too, but Im saying like in terms of investment, 3 slots weapons are even shitter, not in absolute numbers.
     
  6. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Here's the fundamental design concept : LT/AFV are supposed to win 1v1 against APC.

    I said this when we released 2.7.0, but let me repeat again : APC is a spawn point, gives ammo/health to infantry and is much cheaper than LT/AFV.
    If it also rekts vehicles(even if it's just light vehicles), like I said, it would be World of APCs.

    I can't really buff 3-slot MG to the point that it deals non-insignificant damage in late game, without it absolutely rekting LT/AFV in early game.

    I have a feeling that if I give 3-slot HEMG/DUMG even just 1 or 2 more damage per shot(10+ more DPS), that APC warfare will strike back.

    Now, as for 3-slot weapons.
    I am not saying you have to get 3-slot weapons BEFORE heavy tank, so that research time is actually irrelevant.

    Weight? I believe that's just 1 plate armor off your rear side, sometimes not even a plate.

    Cost? I am fairly sure paying 1/10~1/12 more for 10~15% more damage is "not a bad" deal.

    Also no one is stopping you from using 3-slot & 2-slot together, you will never know if that extra damage would be just enough to win you any skirmish.

    If you don't want to pay for it, it's your tactical decision, this is all I can say.
     
  7. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    If you really feel that way my gut feeling this all has to do with the playerbase being rather bad. If I'm commanding I would love my competent tank drivers to have the strongest tanks they can get, because I know even if we end up with just a few less tanks(seriously it's like 1 less for every 13 heavy tanks or something) they are going to get more done then the enemy who stuck with 2 slot weapons.
     
  8. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    Yeah but if you look at the stats why would you upgrad to 3 slot when it is so much better efficiency wise ( so ratios instead of absolute numbers ) to get another 2 slot weapon.
     
  9. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    advanced salvo seems worth, all other missiles seem not worth, especially homing and guided not worth at alllll
     
  10. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    But you can get both, what's stopping you from getting say 2 3slot he cannons and an anti tank mg? It would be the same exact weight as 2 2slot ranged cannons and an anti tank mg.

    Or are you implying people get 4 weapons on a heavy tank?
     
  11. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    In absolute number you are right, Im not arguing that a heavy tank with 2x3 slots and and an MG would win a duel 1v1. What Im arguing is that on a larger scale, ratio wise you would lose.
    If we both had 10000 res to spend you would lose against 2 slot weapons if you got 3 slots. In that aspect I've realized ( a bit after JGF) that medium tanks are better than getting heavies. But with unlimited res mid game it's not the case anymore.

    In optimal strategy situation you would do something like this, mediums -> heavies-> mediums ( when low on funds and enemy team is low too )
     
  12. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    Anyway in pubs I Wouldnt care what people got to win the game, but if this was a PUG or a scrim I wouldnt get a 3 slot weapon if my life counted on it.
     
  13. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Tell me exactly what this ratio is please, at first I thought it was just an additional weapon due to weight but this post makes it sound like cost.

    I think who's in the tank drastically changes what you should get for tech and tanks. Nothing exists in a vacuum, you have to account for wages, recycling, the fact people are keeping their tank alive from 10 minutes ago, how often you are rebuilding bases, how often you have to rebuild refs and just how many refs, all these affect how much res you have. You can never assume we have the same total of res on a given map. If res is super limited yeah meds for sure, you can't control a map with just 2 heavies, though at that point I expect you to only have 10% of the map haha. The thing with heavies though is it takes 6 minutes to research them, you can accumulate tons of res if you just lock the vf in the mean time.

    I mentioned it before too while there's no real cap to vehicles on the field there's a cap to how many you can actually get in tanks. While every comm would be like"EVERYONE IN TANKS" you always got them few engies floating around keeping stuff up and repairing tanks or building new refs. Likewise you just have players who hate tanks and rather be on the field. You can yell all you want, they ain't getting in a tank. So while funds might be limited in some regard I can reasonably expect a certain amount of players in tanks, and if I got the funds I want them to be in better tanks.
     
  14. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    So if you divide damage/rof -> divide weight you get your DPS/weight and then add the cost you pay to make this ugprade
    For some 3 slot weapons like HE it goes down. For some 3 slot weapons like ranged it stays almost the same, 3 slot ranged being like 0.02 better dps/weight in comparison to 2 slot
    For some 3 slot weapons it becomes better like rail guns. Theres a fair bit of an inconsistency to how much damage gets added and why. Ranged and HE both got added 7 damage ( 60->67 and 70->77 ) but HE has a rof of 2 ( so long) and rails have one of 1.4 ( shorter ). So dps wise ranged comes ahead.
    But railsguns has a really short ROF with 8 extra damage. You can see where this goes. If you include costs to buy Ranged and HE are just complete shit.

    2 slots are barely inferior to 3 slots


    Now if we look at medium tanks and chassis cost and add that to our previous DPS/weight ratio but instead of weapon costs we add the full tank costs ( so chassis + weapons ). Medium tanks come out head and shoulder above heavy tanks.
    What this means practically is. If you have all the funds available you should get your 3 slot weapons and what ever cause in absolute numbers its better.

    But everyone knows and has experienced in a BALANCED GAME, when heavies has rolled in, both sides will be depleted in funs after prolonged heavy fighting. Thus its important to manage tanks as efficient as possible-> building mediums, but because people are stupid and wont buy mediums when they can have heavies, building heavies with 2 slots canons.

    ( the thing is a lot of the time with very heavy weaponry on your heavy tank, you'll have 4 plates of armor , thats litterally the same as a medium with 3 different kinds of weapons and 4 plates of armor everywhere. The game winning difference is that cost efficiency wise mediums blow heavies out of the water)
     
  15. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Dps by weight? Are you serious? Dps is a shit metric because no one can sustain all hits all the time. Like I said it only works for vehicle mgs because they are hit scan, you really have to suck to miss with them. I get that you are using it justify cost of upgrading, but everything as far as I can tell is a flat 50 res more so I look at it more as just a 10% increase in damage. There's other things to consider then just raw damage too, like how explosive cannon gets a slightly bigger explosive radius or ranged shoots with even less fall. For missiles several of them fly faster, and for your homing example it locks on much faster and it has a wider area to lock with. Just a bunch of minor improvements everywhere. At most for me at least I question why some things jump up 20 weight instead of 10, like rails, or just 5 instead of 10 like ranged. This does seem inconsistent.

    Your load out only works for nf, and even then nf heavy does have more armor. They also have more hull hp and way better cooling, but no one thinks of that. I tried a be med and it had 3 plates on all sides(compo armor), a simliar load out for a be heavy had 4 plates on 3 sides and 5 on one. I still see the heavy outputting more damage and taking more hits. With a limited number of tank drivers, or even more importantly in a bunch of maps space, I want them to do as much damage as possible.
     
  16. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    What other metric could you possible use to evaluate weapons?
    You cant really assign a number to explosive radius and add that to another metric, you can factor in the fact that ranged canons are fast.
    Thats the only way to even explore the maths behind it.
     
  17. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm not a math person, but several elements of empires don't work if you try to put it on a spread sheet. If you do you end up missing the bigger picture of how it all works together.

    I'll just say what I thought somewhere near the beginning of this, I highly doubt that 6% increased cost of heavies is going to break your bank and cost you the game because you fielded one less tank. That's honestly all it amounts to when you compare 3 slot loadout heavies to ones with 2 slot loadouts.
     
  18. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    I agree, but thats why I said pure efficiency wise it matters. But in a pub game nope. In a close pug or scrim it would i think
     
  19. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I think having all these tanks do 10% more damage is worth more then one tank, even in a scrim setting. Damage adds up ya know?
     
  20. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Math is really not your best friend when it's Empires we are talking about.
    We should still use math to see if things are actually "far off", but we shouldn't use math for all decision-making cases, espeically when the numbers are relatively close.

    First, Empires is asymmetric.
    Just take a look at NF & BE Heavy, show me your math.

    Second, Empires isn't a perfectly programmed game, like, not even close.
    Here's a really nice example.

    DUMG used to deal 4 damage at 0.1 cycle time. 40 DPS.
    HEMG used to deal ~20 damage at 0.4 cycle time. 50 DPS.
    Hmmm, DUMG doesn't look that bad.
    Nope, there's a truncation issue(it's still there, it's just I boosted DUMG's damage) that truncates DUMG's damage, DUMG has always been doing (damage-1) damage, all the time.

    Last, players are not perfect AIs.
    203mm arty is a nice example, when we tested that for the first time, people complained that "203mm arty is ridiculously OP".
    Because you could take away 3~4 plates of armor with one shot. However, that's ideal case for you.
    I had to buff it for multiple times and even now it's not OP.

    When do you HAVE to use math? When you don't(or can't) have a nice sense of the overall balance.
    Just take a look at other great games out there, they HAVE to use math because their balance are ridiculously complex.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017

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