I'll keep this short and sweet. After playing a bunch of other games and coming back to empires, a few things seem out of whack. SMG's in general. "Oh no hes crying nerf!!!" Not a nerf but a complete smg overhaul. Right now SMGs shouldn't even be classified as smgs, they look and sound like an smg but I don't know very many smgs where you can crouch and shoot to god awful distances to get kills. Up close they are still too strong compared to what they should be, but at a range they feel no different. When I unload a clip on a guy with full health running 200 yards away and kill him before that clip ends, something needs to be fixed. Bullet points for people who wont bother reading anything else: 1) Decrease damage by 25-50% 2) Increase the spread of recoil 3) Decrease the damage from anything shorter than close to medium-close ranges ala making them shit a long ranges That should sum it up. Right now they are just a killing machine. If its supposed to go Rifleman, scout, engineer and grenadiers against melee, then the smgs don't even fit in that order. Right now they are Riflemen, engineer, scout, then grenadier. Basically on any map other than district or escort I see little to no use to be a riflemen because you can dish out nearly the amount of power, and you can do a bunch of other shit along those lines. Last I checked engineers were always supposed to be a defensive type of class, not the offensive juggernaut that they currently are.
While I'm not 100% sure of any one number that he throws around, I tend to lean in the direction of Goose's argument. I don't know how much nerfing would be needed, and i'd still think that they should be effective in-close... I disagree with point 1 and i ESPECIALLY disagree with point 3 (the range dampening factor for the old scout rifle pissed the hell out of me), but only because I think point 2 would be more then enough of a nerf for the weapon-- I would go so far as to say to INCREASE smg damage/rate of fire/whatever and decrease accuracy, to the point where they're murder in-close and crap at-range- I could live with point-blank SMG>point-blank AR, if it came to that. He does have some point-- scout rifles are limited to long range only, and grenadier mortar-pistol combos are limited to medium range, but the SMG is almost as good as the AR in it's versatility, to a point. How much of a nerf is up to debate, personally, i dont think the situation is as bad as Goose describes it, but I can see the validity of his argument. I guess basically make smg1 into smg2, and smg2 into something else altogether... some sort of... tertiary submachine gun.... some sort of THIRD gun... but such things are only known in rumor and legend. But keep the gun models... i love the NF hair dryer model! I should also note that I'm super-biased in this debate, as I loooooooooooooooove anything related to single shot weapons (NF heavy, pistols, and currently, Scout rifles) so I'll support anything that makes these weapons superior to the other guns. Take that into account when you consider my argument. (lobster is to semi-auto guns as dubee is to mortars)
Have you seen the weapon at medium range. I am actually gonna have to say there is better balance in CS than in this game with those smgs. Point 3: For a scout rifle I could see how it pissed you off, but why in the hell would the smg not lose damage when it is meant to be a mid-close to close range weapon. I just don't see how a bullet from such a small gun can contain enough velocity to do a ton of damage at range. Remeber the uber sniper pistol way back when, this is what the SMG is now.
I agree. SMGs are too powerful. The increase in spread for the SMG 2 didn't do much to hinder it. It irks me to see engineers win fights and still be able to do all that engineers can do.
this is somthing i learned about making music.. you cant go by what looks good on paper you need to listen(or test it) to see what really works what i think needs to be fixed is just the smg 2's spread(maybe decrease damage for both).. but basically its too good a long range.. the smg 1 should be better at long range but its not.. and by long range i dont mean a mile i mean 25 feet this makes people pick smg 2 over 1 everytime
There is another reason to pick NF SMG2 over NF SMG1. NF SMG2 doesn't take forever to pull out and start using like NF SMG1.
I have to agree wholeheartedly here. I play engineer and scout all the time and might I say, you can MURDER an entire squad of enemies with the SMG 2 as long as you get the jump on them. I was once able to kill 5 guys around a flag on escort using a single clip in under 4 seconds. That has to say something about how overpowered it is. My take on how to nerf the SMG is to lower its Rate Of Fire and increase the spread a little. The thing is currently a machinegun on steroids, and increasing the spread just means that a few extra bullets will miss, but you've got so many coming out of the barrel it doesn't make a whole hill of beans.
I have to call BS on that. SOME people pick the SMG1 over the SMG2 every time because they didn't realize that stuff about the SMG2 until you just said that. D'oh! I don't know about lowering the ROF, because aren't SMGs designed around the concept of a high ROF? BUT accuracy way down, yes, and maybe nerf damage. (Yes I'm flip-flopping on my last position b/c of the unanimous support! I done told you I was biased for the semi-autos anyway!)
The Scout and Engi are linked. The Scout will always be better than the engi (because of skills and weapon choice) so it's not enough to say that engis are better than scouts. they share 2 weapons! Sure, SMGs are a little too much, but is there a way to lower only the engi weapons? Scouts need strong legitimate automatic weapons, nerfing the SMGs will hurt them.
Riflemen have more armor than engineers to begin with. So your point is valid in that sense. Right now the problem is the smgs take very little skill to use because of their long range, accuracy, and damage output. Its like have a para with awp bullets, with the accuracy of an m4 (For you CS Users).
i just think the issue is one smg is way better then the other.. they dont need to be nerfed.. I thought that the smg 1 was designed for longer range and the smg 2 was for close combat.. rite now the smg 2 is better for both.. it would be cool if people had a reason to pick smg 1 for a map like mvalley because of the wide open spaces and then the smg 2 for up close battles like escort... avair your just thinking that everyone is on the whole nerf frenzy still.. but i think that alot of people have givin up on that.. this is more about making the game better
I've never used the smg 2 before. I will check it out this evening. Anyway i've killed lots of engies as a rifleman. An engy turret is way more annoying than his weapon. Also there's probably no other mod around with maps as big as the empires ones, so we need weapons that are still effective over longer distances. If you reduce the effectiveness of smg's, most engies will have no chance against grenadiers anymore. Their turrets will get rocketed pretty fast, and they themselves will get mortarted. I don't know anything about the smg2, but the smg 1 doesn't seem too strong to me. On the other hand, the rifleman class is underused in normal maps. Engies, grens and even scouts are more usefull (if they know how to sabotage). The only advantage of being a rifleman is being able to kill other infantry better than other classes. However they're still vulnerable to scouts (hide skill/scout rifle), engineers (turrets) and have no defence against even the smallest vehicle. This isn't enough of an advantage for people to pick that class in big maps. Making smg's less powerfull could maybe get some people to change from engy to rifleman. However i'm afraid that wouldn't do it, since rifleman are already very well able to kill engies, with the only problem being supporting turrets and vehicles close by, which wouldn't change at all. Maybe decrease the effectiveness of the smg2 (i think the smg1 is fine), and increase the armor of the rifleman a little ?
From my perspective its not the power its the distance, what i mean is if say i was a rifleman an u was a engy ud be able to see and hit me even if i used iron sights which by the way block too much screen to be effective. Many times ive ducked set up iron sights, homed in on an engy who just lets lose at 5 miles distance and kills me. This situation is similar to a grenadier vs a tank , being in a tank you might think youve got optics or stuff to help see further but no the grenadier is able to see you and is actually more accurate over long distance due to no recoil, how many battles have you had where you have to retreat because a gren has jus stripped your armour from long distance . Yea i know thats his job but my observation is in regard to sighting and aiming distances not power. a light tank with a small calibre gun shouldnt be able to fire as far as a heavy with a large bore weapon and a pistol should def not be able to outrange a rifle?? .
For me, the SMGs could ALWAYS beat a rifle. They really need less damage and less accuracy (someone SNIPED me on isle last time I played. I was in the mid and he was on the BE-hill). And the scout needs an automatic sniper rifle! (Means another weapon instead of replacing the current sniper).
Nerf distance on smg2 to around 25-40m and increase distance on smg1 to around 60-70m (or their equivalents). I have to say, the spread on smg2 is actually quite noticeable, especially on the nf model, but doesn't do quite as much as it should, probably. I also have to say, as soon as I get a rifleman bodyguard while i'm building on the front lines (or for every 2 engies on the front lines), then i'll fully support switching the engies smg's to a big spear or a pump-action shotty - because getting killed at range by a scout or rifleman or even a gren is no problem and should happen, whilst getting pwned within 10ft five times by any old monkey should definately not happen.
For some people leaving comments, SMG2 is not the only borked SMG. Sure it is F.U.B.A.R. but the other smgs are nearly just as imbalanced as they are. Another thing, I don't think some of you are getting my point, Engineers can kill riflemen, but haven't we already said that riflemen have an easy chance to kill an Engineer? To Silk: How will adding armor to the riflemen and decreasing SMG2 help out the balance of SMG's? They are ALL broken. Any time you can snipe a great distance with any SMG and kill someone on a map, is frankly pathetic. Is it me or are there other people who assumed engineers were supposed to play a defensive role? If this is so, can a person of power please comment, because I could be totally wrong, and then this post is basically useless. Since they are already such a great power on offense, maybe that is what they are meant for? Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing a major fix to all SMGs in 1.08, then replacing their smgs in a later version with JUST A SHOTGUN! Engineers should heal or revive, or play around with base defenses, or occasionally "assist" their team with base assaults which right now they don't really assist they do it all. Last I checked this was a team based game and I have no idea when the 1-man team of the Engineer was modified. You guys all have to realize, its not just the distance of the SMG, I don't care if it could go the whole screen but do 1 damage, right now its a combination of its distance and its overpowered respect to damage. A gun with little recoil, tons of power, and good distance, to me that sounds like a sniper rifle in any game, not an SMG.
I really don't see the major problem you're talking about Goose. From a distance i have less trouble killing an engy with a mortar, than killing a grenadier with an smg. Also from a distance the scout rifle, and all the rifles from the rifleman class can easily kill engies before your health has dropped to 50%. With medium distance the engy with smg will probably kill the grenadier, and he will be able to kill a rifleman if he spots him first, or is simply better. Still the rifleman will usually come out victorious, and if the grenadier is named dubee he still doesn't have a chance. So engies get killed by scout rifles, grenadiers, rifleman and every vehicle in empires' arsenal. Not to mention they constantly get blown up by nades trying to repair a tank or build a turret. Sure they are popular because they can do a lot. They have decent firepower, can heal and repair, and build things - like turrets. This is what makes the engy an all around unit. It's decent in every aspect, but not outstanding. A tank is still better to kill enemy vehicles than 1 engy turret. A rifleman has more firepower than an engy. A grenadier is more effective against enemy vehicles than the engies ml turret. So i really don't think smg's or too strong (if as you say the smg2 is not much more "overpowered" than the smg1). I fail to see what decreasing it's effectiveness would do. The grenadier would still mortar the smg guy, the rifleman would still kill him, the scout still uses hide or his scout rifle to take him down and vehicles aren't affected by this. And since i can't remember being killed by an smg over a large distance even once (unless i was severely wounded when he started shooting at me) i don't think anything has to change. I will however test that smg2 this evening, to see if that weapon is indeed a lot better than the smg1.
firstly; DONT decrease the ROF. why? because that (i promise you) WILL make the weapon easier to use. you might not be able to get the drop on people quite as easily, but you almost certainly will find it more accurate and more importantly, have more ammo at the business end you your clip. what do I mean by that? 99% of people, when threatened, will be firing before their crosshair is dead on the target's face... the bullets where the damage comes in are towards the end of the clip. the smart solution, imo: increase ROF (20%)- less "business" end of the clip decrease damage (20%) to compensate increase recoil, especailly to NFSMG2 and slightly to BESMG2 the increased ROF will allow your weapon less time to regain accuracy between shots, which will decrease accuracy. it will also decrease your time with the "business end" of the clip. that'd definately nerf the weapon. if you don't want to increase ROF, just do the 20% damage increase imo.
Silk maybe we are using 2 different sets of smgs because the ones that I have seen use and used, easily can take out non prone snipers with a sidestep spray or a quick crouch. The fact is we should limit damage on how far smgs can shoot with the exception of the ones made for longer ranges, decrease damage, and increase recoil greatly. I want to see engineers be able to take out at max 1 target at longer ranges in 1 clip, and 1-2 max at medium ranges. Close up they should give hell because thats where they should be fighting.
