So where the game is right now, is infantry is pretty good. I like that there is a distinct difference between rifleman, engineer and gren. I don't give a shit about scout, which in itself may be an issue. It's the one class that draws nubs to play, and is mostly useless. Vehicles are decent upto heavies. NF vs BE mediums are about evenly balanced although I would like to see more distinction between the engines. They mostly all blend into the same thing, same speed, same torque, same heat properties with very little difference between them. A com can pick any engine and it won't really matter on any map. That in itself is wrong. Same mostly goes for armor. These are the days of dummying everything down because no one can come up with a plan for making very different engine/armor balance. I think the attempts at balance are to make everything identical and remove the need for more than one engine and one armor - sad. So my point is NF vs BE heavies. I com'd a match last night with what I considered very balanced teams. Map was Booty bay - so mostly a head to head map. I was BE and Creeper was NF com's and both of us know to aggressively place buildings to push into the enemy base. BE took an early lead but never got a foot hold in middle. BE had mediums first which I assume was due to Creeper going right for heavies. NF had one or two guys lobbing HE at a front refinery constantly and demonstrate a real problem with HE being seriously weak. I got our team (BE) heavies with dual HE - big mistake. HE now sucks. But didn't cost us the game. By the time we saw the game swing to NF's favor we had everything researched - 2 armors(Compo, Reflective), 2 Engines (Coolant, Gas), Extended range, HE Canon and HE Pew Pew, Bio ML, UML, DU. NF had UML, DU, HE Pew Pew, Guided ML, and there was little we could do to be effective. I do not blame the team - I think they did excellent. I blame the balance of the weapons. HE used to be OP and now has swung to being useless. When we load up dual Extended range we can't fit anything else but dual Extended range and that was our best setup and no match for dual guided. I jumped in a heavy near the end and pounded the fuck out of tanks with little effect. I chased one nuke tank back to it's repair pad to kill it, but otherwise couldn't do much. One volley of Guided and a few HE pew pew's and we're dead. The issue comes to NF's extra armor, lighter load out allowing them to put on more weapons and still have more armor than BE. BE pushes dual Extended Range (cost 70 each) and can't afford to put anything else on. They would then have 5 sheets on front, side, 4 on one side, 3 on rear. NF has dual guided, and HE pew pew, with 6 sheets on three sides and 4 or 5 on the rear. That is enough on a balanced game to enable NF to win. Simple Math: NF Max Weight 1396 NF Base Weight 846 Difference: 550 BE Max Weight: 1337 BE Base Weight: 470 Difference: 470 So someone intentionally dumped on BE by a full 80 weight points. Ergo why BE has only two weapons and less armor. These were originally designed to be the same difference. If you look at the progression, there seems to be random changes with no clear vision on balance. For example the early heavies had a difference of 1000. Which is why now Grenadiers are MORE effective at killing heavies than even another tank. A dev at one time hated that heavies were so powerful, so they screwed them. Then kept taking more and more from Brenodi until the old BE HE being too powerful was fixed, but way overshot the problem, now making NF way powerful. Hell that salvo ML is crazy up close, and kills the big BE buildings easily. Back in 2.24 days when the scripts were good, but HE Canon was OP, I had recommended that ML's just be sped up. Instead this started the days of completely revamping weapons and when we caught onto the new OP setup, change them again. Every release seems to be "We don't know what the fuck we're doing so spin the dice and mix everything up". Can we fix this and give BE a fighting chance?
"I considered very balanced teams" is a very loose and subjective term, screenshot of scoreboard or don't say that. Maybe you are not supposed to fight NF heavy tanks like that. NF heavy tanks are bulky as fuck, exploit this. Missiles aren't easier to use than cannons, exploit this. If we give NF & BE tanks the same conditions, you are going to cry about how BE tanks are OP. Actually, you already did! Remember?
"We're"? Didn't read the whole thing yet, but nf was given 80 more weight and an extra plate on all sides ages ago. I want to say around 2.5. This was because it was an easier target to hit that moved like ass, unlike the be. And you know what? Balance was much better because of that. It always feels strange when people bring up old patches likes it just happened recently. Oh, you do mention it's an older patch. But you seem to forget it wasn't that be was nerfed but nf was buffed. I can't really speak on nf being much better though, really it just feels like long range they do better cause of dual homing or guided.
NF needed something. BE can still win but always with a better team. We've won that same map multiple times, the game I'm talking about had alot of players I play with regularly. I know it was as close to even in skillset as I've seen before. Score board would show more kills on NF, with Neemoster on NF racking up lots of kills as gren, and tapeduck racking up lots of kills as engineer on BE. I'm talking about the feel of commanding both sides multiple times. It's easier with NF. I can setup mediums with canon, ML and depending on armor either DU or HE Pew Pew. I know exactly when this was done, and have heard blame placed onto a previous dev. His attempt was to make heavies worthless unless they move slowly with a squad or a pack of other heavies. For almost a year I hear "We know about it and are working on it". I would agree that NF keep the armor, but drop the difference in the weight some. Maybe a 30 buff for NF, instead of 80 and see what that does. I have yet to see incremental attempts at balance. It's all about changing everything and seeing how people like it. We like change, but also balance is key.
I think that 80 buff was to put a plate on every side, but the math is a bit off because for most armors that translates to 60, not 80. Anyways I would say you are right and that should be lessened, but 30 feels a little too low, I'd do 45 so you could add 3 plates, but just 3 plates more. A thought that did bother me was meds and heavies costing 100 less on nf, but I think that's just to account for the cost of armors and faction tanks cost roughly the same. Except again, the math is off and it really should be around 50-80 res cheaper. I know it doesn't seem like much, but 10 vehicles later and you do have a free rax.
Yes NF heavy's are abit overpowered currently especially with dual guided or dual salvo homing plus HE MG
But keep in mind BE heavy can push out alot of damage with dual ER or HE cannon/Bio ML/DU MG or HE MG but you can only put on like 4 plates on each side
Agreed. We're working on changing this as well. And agree to this as well. There is also a bug with the NF model it self that we are trying to fix. This partially exacerbates the imbalance. Both heavies are planned to see changes in the next version. This is an issue too. NF heavies have crazy initial salvos in shotgun configurations. A single NF heavy can destroy any building in seconds, even without damage upgrade. BE? Not so much. This is exactly one of the problems the new scripts are addressing. Missile launchers are sped up so they are (for now) as fast as cannons. While cannons in general are more powerful as well, especially on a per shot basis. The NF heavy is still lethal (but, with some slot loadout changes, not completely ridiculous), but so is the rebalanced BE heavy.
OK here is what I know for now and willing to share to make match's more skill based. Also looking for input, corrections and better ideas: Decide if map needs you to move or can sit still: Sit still - avoid Fission, movement Physics: Fision Engine/Reflective armor. Your team won't be upset if you do Physics engine every map. It's fast and heat can be controlled if you rock while firing. Now decide if you want your team to rock infantry - HE Canon sucks vs infantry. You're already in Physics - get 50 Cal. A sit still option since you'll be pounding tanks early - money or booty bay : Go Mechanical - Compo/ Chemistry - Coolant, and get HE Pew pew. Absorbant sucks early, but rocks on heavies - especially for NF. They can fit 7 layers on 3 sides and 5 on back with absorbant. But they must have repair stations near by. If NF has Guided ML and Extended range or HE Pew Pew - you can dominate. BE - Dual Extended Range will be a decent balance vs the 3 weapons NF can fire, but BE can fire Dual ER faster, and one on each mouse button - so hopefully more accurate. So BE can rock early and win if they capitalize on this: Physics - engine/armor, ER Canon and optionally 50 cal. Mech - right to heavies. Then Do chemistry or go right to nukes. NF has slight advantage due to more armor, and guided is easier to fire and sit and fire maps (Money/Booty Bay). ER is good for shooting while moving and if you can lead the enemy tank. NF - Physics - Engine/armor, ER Canon (Especially for mediums, dual light ML's to start. Electrical - Guided ML adds more time than it takes BE to get to full heavy force. Reflective is good to start and I think Compo is not any good anymore - you still have to retreat to repair, so you might as well go absorbant with more layers. 7 layers and turning is pretty easy to stay active for a long while. I prefer GAS over Fission and many times push that instead of fission, because you can get away from a fight quickly. Fission has slow ramp up, gas is better to get moving. Electrical and BIO engine are now shit. Electrical is too heavy and not much faster than Gas or Fission, and BIO is too slow. Lots more to learn. BE stripped Reflective pretty easily yesterday but I do think it was due to Rifleman with tank damage upgrade and Extended range. HE sucks - don't bother. It'll take forever to kill buildings with this and does less damage to tanks than ER or just about any ML, but good vs infantry. UML Salvo is good if you are doing close shooting. But also good to hit buildings. Decent vs infantry too, especially for NF. HE Pew Pew (wish I remembered it's name) - excellent vs tanks and very light (30). 3 shots will remove one layer of reflective armor. Early game you will kill every enemy vehicle with default armor quickly. Nukes unfortunately are a must have, since they are great at killing turrets, and do OK damage to tanks. But easy to defeat in an open map. Get at least GAS or Fission engine to give those tanks moving quick. Coolant - although it seems obviously correct will cost you too many tanks since it is so slow. Unless you are firing from protection, then coolant is good. Plasma and Rails are worthless. Rails only redeeming factor is building/turret killer, but nukes do that too. Bio ML is a very decent weapon since most players stay on the field too long, and return with little armor, one shot in the ass after stripping layers and a repair station too far will chalk up the tank kills. So you should have this. Plus it's good vs infantry. But NOTHING else in Bio tree is worth researching. Load ONE bio and one UML in NF. Remove armor and lay a slow burn egg with BIO to kill tank as it retreats. DU is also very good for burning off armor. But I don't know much about DU since I rarely push it on my tanks. Someone else will have to define what armor it melts easiest.
I think DU fares similarly to HEMG given similar accuracy, but it's more forgiving on the aiming front and does less well against buildings.
Du does nothing against buildings, except turrets. Even then that's only du hmg, the one you put on apcs. Hemg is more accurate too, so it can be better used at a distance. Up close du is actually better, dps is 5 more and for mgs dps is a fair metric to use. He mg can kinda sorta double as an anti infantry weapon though, it's something to consider. I'd like to point out something in regards to the anti tank mgs. They bypass any special modifiers that armors have, like reflective and absorbant's weird speed to damage modifier. On that front really the only good armor is compo, because it has hp and regens. I'd like to say reactive too, but compo is still better because it helps deal with anything that isn't an anti tank mg. Oh, capacative is something to look at too I think, but it's been awhile since I seen the stats, I think it really only works on heavies. Also absorbant is almost never a good idea. Even if it has crazy high hp against cannons reflect will carry you farther, especially because a lot of be heavies aren't rocking just dual cannons, they usually have bio ml or du or something. I'd say maybe get it if it was a bit cheaper, but it's no longer the cheap armor so cheap disposable tanks just doesn't happen.
Absorbent is great because it allows you to continue firing. It's particularly useful with close range, very high DPS & heat loadouts.
is there really no way to let players pick their items and research more generall buffs? those items could then be actual counters, like in "you deal no damage to abs with railguns but double with HE" (as example) since suddently you could have the diversity currently only existing on paper. i do think that the variations empires has are awesome. its just that, if you start to balance them against eachother so that the fully random initial pick doesnt lead to an automatic fail, they inevitably start to converge. and even worse, since noone ever seemed to accept this and everyone always tries to enforce a counter system - weak or not - theres always an imba item in each respective version. in all games with counters i know of (read as: those i recall atm), you can pick all counters at any time (even though there might be upgraded "super-counters"). not so in empires - if comm doesnt research item x which is good against item y you could give up aswell (ofc its not all that bad - or rather less obvious - because of differences in player skill and some just refusing tanks altogether) and im not speaking up against counters - they make a game more tactical/strategic and increase depth - its meant as the exact opposite. and aside of that - because its about heavies - i think the term heavy should be reinterpreted. currently its understood as "heavily armored" while i think for the game it would be better as "heavily armed" (and actually it currently is kinda both, no matter what we understand) also vehicle-infantry balance is still too much in favor of vehicles. or actually the damage they deal to eachother is off, in both directions - tanks should kill infantry easily (with their weapons, not with their hull - currently a headshot with stdcn doesnt kill, srsly?* even a bodyshot should only leave gibs - close hit? ded), but grens should also be able to kill unaware tanks. and with unaware i mean if they only notice the 3rd missile hitting them it should be too late already. as it stands atm, theyd still have plates left, turn around, run you over, repair and even get at least 2 points for their lack of battlefield awareness. excuse me, but thats no good balance - at all. no matter if tanks cost money or not (because thats the usually the absurd counter argument to the later. as if it wouldnt be a value you can change as easily as hp, dmg, rof and whatnot) blahblah - tl;dr: ignore me :D *in defense it never did
Aren't you removing heat? Also, you can sustain full fire with most builds for at least 10 seconds, which is enough damage to blow through a fully armored heavy.
The hottest thing I can think of that actually puts close to overheat is like dual plasma, 6 std mls and nukes kinda sorta. Most of the time these can usually be offset by coolant and/or the engy vehicle cooling ability. But being able to fire all that doesn't really mean much if you die before you get close enough to the enemy to unleash your payload. I'm having trouble remembering the last time a team won with abs. I almost feel like it's a bad idea to even get after heavies or something because it kinda encourages slightly bad playing, you should be avoiding getting hit in the first place so the appeal of firing more with abs is completely lost. Abs was a good option when it was the cheap armor and the other armors were either expensive(compo) kinda meh or required some skill to use(reflect and regen) or people thinking 2 plates of reactive made it the worse armor, even though it really was on par with everything else. In regards to flasche's post, if there was some way to replace a weapon or armor and effectively have a tier system I don't think it would be hard to have what he wants. It would virtually be what we have now, expect you'd have either a weaker version available from the start, or the researched weapon being a stronger version or even just have multiple tiers of the same weapon with incremental buffs but at the cost of specializing(maybe). This way we let people simply use whatever they feel works best for them in a given situation and the commander can focus on either supporting a certain build or make more well rounded tanks, but they wouldn't dig their grave at the first bad research just like flasche said. The iffy thing is infantry and possibly building health, it would be nice to have a second research tree to help support them and give some defenses. I know you said you want to make it so infantry can select their armor, but I(and many others) would like to able to give infantry some sort of buff, or even buildings depending on all the conditions that usually happen in empires.
So how many of you'ses push heavies as Rifleman with Tank damage. Is it as OP as I think ? Seemed pretty easy to wipe out tanks. And strong when you jump out to have sticky and strong rifle.
I think the current playstyles of going mostly solo don't support Rifleman tank drivers. If you had a coordinated tank squad, at least on paper they would be viable and effective on open maps. As it stands though, you're much better off as Grenadier or Engineer.
OK - I've been doing grenadier/engineer forever. BUT I do think there is one small niche for Rifleman w/ tank upgrade. Booty Bay So as gren, on NF with extended range and guided ML - I could get lots of tanks to no armor and running for their lives but unless I gave chase I couldn't kill them. I couldn't get my team to coordinate on killing one tank at a time, they seemed satisfied when the enemy just retreated. COM wouldn't give targets so we eventually got overrun. I think as Rifleman with tank upgrade from a protected position, it could have made a difference. Any tank pushing up against the wall would earn a sticky.
