Targets: Bad habit or necessary gameplay?

Discussion in 'General' started by Deiform, May 13, 2009.

?

Should infantry targets exist?

  1. Yes I love wallhax

    58 vote(s)
    50.9%

  2. No it's bad for gameplay

    56 vote(s)
    49.1%
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  1. paradinas

    paradinas Member

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    I think the best solution is for targets to be given by having Radar within some distance. This would eliminate the annoying busywork for the commander, and create new strategic points to be fought over, without making players charging in alone or staying stationary and prone too effective.
     
    paradinas, Jun 20, 2009
    #81
  2. [lodw]keef

    [lodw]keef Hobbit

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    I personally think empires maps are to big and open not to have targets. It would be even more of ninja fest else wise, any decent person here has seen a target atleast part way behind the lines and hunted him down before he's gotten to far into the main.
     
    [lodw]keef, Jun 25, 2009
    #82
  3. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    i agree, but currently targets is done by hand while it is too simplistic and would be better automated by something like a small building chris described once
     
    blizzerd, Jun 25, 2009
    #83
  4. @@@@Marcin@@@@

    @@@@Marcin@@@@ Developer

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    Heh I just thought of something,

    If somone were to use real Wallhax nobody would notice , their excuse would be that the com gave him the targets XD
     
    @@@@Marcin@@@@, Jun 25, 2009
    #84
  5. Jessiah

    Jessiah Member

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    Empires 2.25: Now with togglable wallhax!
     
    Jessiah, Jun 25, 2009
    #85
  6. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    hehe true that lawl.
     
    Sirex, Aug 10, 2009
    #86
  7. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    Commander targets are horrible gamedesign.

    Personally I think that the very common theory - the blend between FPS and RTS - is nothing more than an excuse to keep comm targets in for whatever reason. Maybe the responsible dev would cry if they get removed, idk.

    True, in RTS you mainly order your units with what its called "attack move" which would be the equivalent to the comm targets we have now - some RTS even have this unit-behaviour as standard. But attack move is in that games, because its not possible or at least too expensive to let AI decide if its better to attack or hold its fire to not give away its position and provide a simple form to controll your units.

    In FPS on the other hand, situation awareness and knowledge of the human nature plays an enourmous roll. If you spot your enemy first, you have a better chance of taking him down. If you can outsmart your enemies - for example with the knowledge that humans see moving objects way better than immoble ones - you can get in an advantageous position and maybe take down a large force of enemies before they even know where you are.

    Empires is no RTS. It has RTS elements as base building and research, but in the end its the FPS part that decides the game. An engineer can kill a rifleman, tho the riflemen would totaly pwn an engineer if Empires would be a normal strategy game. The position of the commander is not the one of a tyrannic ruler. If people dont trust in his decisions, they can just ignore his orders and take their own actions to win.

    From how I see it, the devs implemented something from RTS games thats only there to make AI controllable and reduce processing power. You will NEVER get fully controllable players - as raged about in many threads, people can do what you say, but its totaly possible that they just ignore you and/or get distracted by anything else. In RTS games, the player controlling the big scale strategy (well hes the only one anyway) is the only one to blame for a loss, but in Empires the commanders position isn't "game-deciding". You can have the best commander, with total oversight, if the team fails to capture and hold valuable strategic positions, you lose. And there is nothing you can do about it as commander.

    The outcome of the missinterpretation of the reason for "attack move", remove crucial FPS elements. You cripple any tactical elements with this stupid target painting. There is no need for battlefiled/situtation awareness because you can just move somewhere and yell at the commander for targets.

    Also there is no skill involved in keeping the a-button pressed while draging borders across the map. A chimp that is able to understand where players are would be able to fullfil this job.

    I can accept engineer cameras and the scouts enhanced senses. Both are local and only available with some effort and you can get rid of both by eliminating the source, while you cant do shit against comm targets. Their usage (placement for cameras; interpreting the arrows on the minimap and maybe relaying them to your team) at least need a little bit of skill and coordination.

    If you want a pure RTS, implement autoaim and remove our ability to walk around like we want, not how the commander decides.

    Please start to realize what it does to the FPS part of the game.

    Thanks.


    Disclaimer:
    I probably overplayed some arguements, but only to transport my point. Please refrain from argueing about those and try not to use single examples to disprove my statement. Even if you managed to sneak behind enemy lines with a big red diamond painted on you, it doesnt negate what I tried to show up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2009
    flasche, Aug 10, 2009
    #87
  8. MOOtant

    MOOtant Member

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    I can't say I care about survey results. I want to get rid of red irritating things. If I'll have a complete solution I'll implement it.
     
    MOOtant, Aug 10, 2009
    #88
  9. Deiform

    Deiform Member

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    We do, replace with commander placed listening posts which are just bigger more expensive cameras.
     
    Deiform, Aug 10, 2009
    #89
  10. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    Trickster, Aug 10, 2009
    #90
  11. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    NC <filler>
     
    flasche, Aug 10, 2009
    #91
  12. Emp_Recruit

    Emp_Recruit Member

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    1 target fine, mass targets are lame though
     
    Emp_Recruit, Aug 10, 2009
    #92
  13. Fabrizio

    Fabrizio Banned

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    If comm targets get replaced by radar towers, it won't change anything.

    Everyone just places radar tower behind a wall. yay wallhax that enemy cant destroy without rushing it with tanks.


    So much retards who don't have reflexes or good aim, and want wallhacks just because they suck. (like dragoon)


    If wallhax ever gets removed, it WILL be replaced by some noob-friendly solution that doesn't take any skill either.


    Yes, playing empires is just like playing cs against wallhacks. just as fun. "oh no empires is dying"
     
    Fabrizio, Aug 10, 2009
    #93
  14. LordDz

    LordDz Capitan Rainbow Flowers

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    Erm, the difference is that you can't wallhack deep into enemy territory without placing that 600res radar, it can be destroyed (seriously, how much do you suck if you can't destroy a radar?)
     
    LordDz, Aug 10, 2009
    #94
  15. Fabrizio

    Fabrizio Banned

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    Well no wallhax at enemy base, but lots of maps have huge walls that you can hide it behind.

    Unless its nearly as huge as a gaydar.


    But having some kind of wallhack is still lame, should just give stationary target diamonds every 5+ seconds, and not following like cameras.


    and cameras are op, they do the same thing as comm targets, just don't move until u got wallhax yay.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2009
    Fabrizio, Aug 10, 2009
    #95
  16. TheAmethystDuke

    TheAmethystDuke Member

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    It takes little effort to destroy a fragile radar, I don't think that commanders will waste resources on a radar wich will be destroyed in 2 seconds flat if they could spend it on tanks, research and an extra front line barracks.
     
    TheAmethystDuke, Aug 10, 2009
    #96
  17. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    It's dangerous to go alone here take this:

    http://www.forums.empiresmod.com/showthread.php?t=9341

    also keep the targets, make them less sharp in color (fade them out a little) but they only work if you have direct vision on the target, if not they stop moving and remove themselves after like a minute or 2

    if the target walks back into your direct vision target location gets re-updated and works again
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2009
    blizzerd, Aug 10, 2009
    #97
  18. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    Posted it on previous page lol :D
     
    Trickster, Aug 10, 2009
    #98
  19. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    k lol

    [​IMG]
     
    blizzerd, Aug 10, 2009
    #99
  20. Metal Smith

    Metal Smith Member

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    Remove targets, make scout targets give a red reticule to the entire team, give points for scout targeted units, remove all other form of targeting except for commander targetted buildings on the minimap. Possibly replace that with just commander painting the minimap with a target (by painting, I mean, attack this location command taht can be used to target where a building is.
     
    Metal Smith, Aug 10, 2009
    #100
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