Slow gameplay or fast gameplay, what do you prefer?

So, I think that after the port to 2007-engine made Empires slower in all aspects of gameplay. I really think it wasn't a good thing.

Infantry got nerfed (accuracy, damage), vehicles (accuracy, damage) got nerfed, armors got buffed, and so on..

Even though some aspects of gameplay have since been buffed, like grenadier rpg and apc got spawns back.. the same thing still continues. All aspects incl. infantry vs infantry, infantry vs tanks, tank vs infantry, tank vs tank, are so slow that it's even boring to play. The only thing that works to me is grenadier rpg vs tank. It's a fair battle. Unless the tank has an mg, which is pretty stupid. You get shot with cannons 5 times and you don't die, but suddenly having a std mg gets grenadiers killed.. The resistances only bring unnecessary stupidness when used like this.

Maybe it's just nostalgia, that I still like that the balance in 2.12 was the best.. No it wasn't like it is now balanced. People shooting at you make you smile in 2.25 compared to 2.12 where being shot was a death sentence like it should be.

Riflemen were kinda overpowered against infantry, but forget the balance for a while now.. rifleman is supposed to be "overpowered" in this aspect of the game. Like grenadier is supposed to be "overpowered" in vehicle combat and ranged support combat. Scout was supposed to be "overpowered" at range. Engineer was supposed to be "overpowered" in its effectiveness at building, destroying and general combat at medium to close range.

Now.. tanks are supposed to be "overpowered" killing machines. Now replace the "overpowered" with "useful" and you get the idea.

There's no "shitting-in-your-pants"-moments in Empires anymore like before. The weapons and everything just seem to hurt players' feelings more than the actual players.

An example: you are running in your base and you see artillery coming down.. and you just ignore it like you were walking in the rain. This is where you should feel like shitting your pants, know that you've propaply lost the game already and try to do everything you can to make yourself survive the artillery and so on..

Nothing is more stupid than being the loosing team for 20 minutes knowing from the start that you're not going to win, and that the round just keeps on going. You keep getting killed and still the other team just can't win the game already, because their tanks are not doing enough damage and not taking enough damage for the other team to overcome this state.

Share your thoughts.

 

I agree without a doubt, but when we get some form of script manifest (even if it's lua based) then more scripts can be tested. The problem was that 2.2 was tested for a hell of a long time, and the 2.12 scripts were totally incompatible. If you think weapons were overpowered in 2.12, when they were in orange box, they were ridiculous. They might as well have been instagib. As such, new scripts were made for 2.2 and there was a long period of testing.

Which is why it would be very difficult to test an entirely new scriptset for a new version as it is. However, using lua/script manifest, it can be done on public servers, which saves a lot of time and gives better feedback. So I look forward to being able to get back to the faster paced gameplay, but I can understand that it simply isn't practical right now.

 

Werihukka, you are a man after my own heart.

 

i agree, although it has to be dome carefully, we dont want to end up at the other end of the slide, and we also dont want to end with "1 player in a decent tank can end the game if hes lucky"

 

Some things are better...in the end it only comes down to rpg being a decent counter, but at least that's something, haha.

Trickster is totally right really...scripts just couldn't make the port over right and since then, we haven't really had a good testing, or concensus on much of it...so it's still not very fun. We do need the fun back in empires, and I think our devs understand and are working towards that now.

 

Many argue against the slippery slope and how it's inevitable, but a very slow painful death. It just needs to be made a lot steeper so games end faster, and more tools be made available in order to counter the slope before you get too far down it.

 

The weapons were not overpowered in 2.12. They did what they were supposed to do and were good at that. Now every single weapon feel like they are not "advanced scifi weapons" like they look. The weapons are some kind of a fusion between ancient blackpowder guns (accuracy) and modern full automatic air guns (damage) with futuristic looks. The weapons feel like toys.

My suggestion to the current development team is that firstly: If there's someone in the team who hasn't played 2.12 and even if you have, go download it, install it and make a playtest. Yes the vehicles act weird and there are bugs and it's not perfect, but test how the things like damage and accuracy and all that are and how balanced they are even though they may feel like overpowered, because they are not balanced not to hurt anybody's feelings like the current version.

I remember when the forums were filled up with "nerf this and that" posts and it all lead to everything being way out of any kind of a balance. Just because someone doens't play some class or use some weapon and thinks that every other class and weapon than what they use are overpowered doesn't mean they really are.

These are my opinions, but scout rifle never needed a nerf. I never complained about being killed by scouts. Yes it was annoing, but not after I switched class and killed the scout. That was made a big deal here, that scout rifle is overpowered. It was like stealing a lollipop from a baby to kill a scout that was sniping you, if you knew how to play. In 2.12 scout got easily out of stamina using the scout rifle, so it was easy to encounter. And I actually prefer dying in game from being shot than being shot 100 times and not dying.

Then, mortar was made a big deal here.. People who played rifleman all the time, were annoyed to get killed by grenadiers while they were prone. But actually killing a grenadier was never a problem for rifleman class, was it? So why was mortar suddenly considered overpowered? On top of that grenadier got resistance nerf against bullets.. so rifleman got even more powerful against grenadier than ever and grenadier got worse against rifleman than ever. Is it balanced? No.

The list goes on and on.

 

To add..

My hope is that the current developers don't take my critisism against the current version as bitching.

I just think something went horribly wrong with Empires as I remember it being the most enjoyable game a couple of years back. Why change things for the worse?

I understand that the scripts were not compatible, but that really wasn't the only reason all the fun and excitement from Empires was gone. The gameplay changed into something very predictable, slow and boring from unpredictable, fast and fun.

 

Games actually use to last longer back in 1.7 days. Usually like 2 hours a match.

 

I'm not saying that 2.12 weapons were overpowered, I'm saying that when we imported them into orangebox, the handling of everything changed. Weapons were nothing like they were in 2.12, even though they were the same scripts. You have to understand, they CANNOT be reproduced in orange box. I've tried and tried, and I've got damn near close, but the damage had to be toned down massively.

 

I remember that..

Actually by slow and fast I don't necessary mean the length of the round. There were pretty good and long rounds in 2.12, too, but the gameplay was still much faster. And it was harder to predict the outcome of those rounds unlike now. Balanced teams resulted in longer games.

That's what I'm after here.

 

Yeah, I agree completely. I wrote that response before reading the whole thread.

 

I understand completely. There's no need to reproduce anything. There's however a need to remake the way they work. Accuracy plays an important role in the effectiveness of the weapons. Also the resistances and such. But I don't know much about scripting, so I'm just saying things.

 

Do you mean with faster gameplay more wins by ninja rushes?
Or are you talking mostly about infantry weapons?

 

9 mining in 2.12 was fun. Sneak in, drop mines, obliterate an entire base...

anyhow, I think a good time table to set for a match is 30 minutes to 45 minutes. That should be the goal. Longer or shorter are fine, but on average, a game lasting 45 minutes would be great.

 

doo, I use to get the chills and adrenaline rushes while sneaking into a base to pull off a ninja. I never got that feeling from any game before.

 

If you read what I wrote, you don't have to ask questions like that. I never even mentioned anything about ninja rushes. I'm talking about the general lack of effectiveness in weapons and how it has affected the gameplay to become slow and predictable. And mostly the end of the game is just about so time taking, but at the same time you don't stand any chance. If the game is decided already, the team should win in 5 minutes. It's no fun to play a round 30 minutes knowing that you won't win. If you're clearly not winning, you want to lose the game as soon as possible to start a new round, but if you fight back you will be fighting back the next half an hour for nothing because neither of the teams do enough damage to overcome the situation.

 

I think perhaps we have to examine the idea that perhaps toning down infantry weapon effectiveness didn't make it any easier for newbies, but possibly harder. I remember easily being able to kill 3 people in a row with smg2 and I ain't no spring chicken. It's entirely possible that slowing down weapons has made it harder for newbies to make a dent using weapons, and instead made it so that the people who know how to play will win many more skirmishes, and those that don't won't really have a chance.

I remember being dopey was the biggest danger in Empires 2.0+ - if you weren't paying attention, someone would chop you down in a couple seconds. People were surprised at the blisteringly fast pace of the action, but now it's all about slow shots, crouch + prone, and pretty much more about being careful and accurate rather than manoeuvring around your enemies on the battlefield.

It's actually not so bad in 2.25, but we all know things need that spark again. I'm not that sure how to do it, but I think speeding up rof (and possibly removing the stamina penalty) might help. Haha, that was always the thing, you'd sprint to duck away from your enemy, and then you'd see people trying to vault over walls and just being stuck there like a pancake - not being able to run anywhere and not being able to escape. Literally pinned to a wall.

 

i like drawn out games that dont use arties or heavies =p

 

You're propaply right with this. The funny thing about the infantry fights were always about hit-and-run style rushes and you actually had to take cover when you were shot at. Now the weapon fights are mostly about desperately trying to get hits. And there have been times where someone is shooting at you and your team mate is healing you at the same time and you are basically immortal at that moment for a while.

Combat tactics had to be used in order to overcome some situations in 2.0-> whereas now you just build a trench from walls and shoot each other without any thinking. Just brainless shooting over walls and nade spam. That always happens in the newer versions. It happened before but it just took less time for the better team to run over the other and the place of the conflicts switched back and forth.

By raising the effectiveness of weapons (not only damage, but accuracy, too) I think the combat would be a lot easier for new players to get into. There are no many games where you have to know which weapons are useless and which are useful (smg1 vs smg2). Similar weapons should be equally useful for newbies to get used to it faster. At the same time the game becomes more demanding on us older players who have Empires in their spine. You all know how you have played so much you just know every move the newbies are going to make and you can almost dodge their shots. What if it wasn't so easy, slow, boring and predictable. I, for one, would enjoy some challenge for a chance.