Scout Rifle Balancing

It seems that the real problem is that the recon aspect requires the scout to work from a certain range, and right now there isn't really a reasonable gun that goes with that role (I remember plans being for a light rifle). It might just be the look of the scout rifle and it might be how it currently functions.

As for sabatoge, IMO it's too obvious. It's easy to see if a building is sabotaged even if just casually looking over them. Then switch to engi and fix it. My thought is that it should be more subtle, so that you don't see it unless you look for it, and you wouldn't look for it unless you notice its effects (gee, i spawned with half health, lets go check the building's sabotage monitor bit (this kindof goes hand in hand with the suggestion of a specific place on the building that you sabotage)).

 

It helped, but it just went from crap to bad.

 

align, why do you wanna remove the scout rifle and destroy the scout? seems fine to me. great even


the other day i remember sneaking behind enemy lines on a large tank battle. then as soon as a couple of their tanks retreated and started to repair, those sitting ducks made beautiful headshots.

 

I'd say, with a light rifle (like the one I earlier proposed) those situations are still likely Sandbag.

 

Because it doesn't seem fine to me.

 

Scout Sabotage
I would NOT go so far as to criticize the sabotage ability's function, or getting points for spotting. Those ideas seem to be good and seem to work fine. I say they seem to because I haven't played the scout enough in the new version to judge. I will do so and give my opinion then.

However, although their function is good, the abilities seem to have limited application. That is, you can only use sabotage immediately before or DURING an assault with heavier forces, or you can only use sabotage on structures away from the front lines with the hopes that they will STAY sabotaged until someone uses them at an effective moment. Any other time and the enemy will just repair it in a matter of seconds-- no lost res, no slowing down the advance, no nothing. At least by destroying it they have to spend res to rebuild it.

My view is that the other classes are far more versatile and therefore practical to use in a match. The scout could have some of this versatility if he had some sort of a combat role, but right now he's less offensive then the engineer, which can at least make turrets to aid the assault.

I want to stress that the current scout is an improvement over the old scout. The old scout was ONLY useful for long range sniping-- which was fun (I loved it) but pretty much useless except for the early game. The current scout actually has application throughout the game. The challenge now is to make this application as useful as any of the other classes.

As for improving sabotage, I find being sabotaged by enemy units incredibly frustrating (which speaks good for the scout) and I can see making it less obvious would be a HUGE advantage for the scout, but also be a huge pain in the ass. In my own opinion, I'd rather not improve the ability but rather give him some combat proficiency.

Scout Rifle
I recently spent some time messing around with this rifle, staging some "experiments" with some other players-- we'd start on equal footing at SMG range, and duke it out with a pistol and a scout rifle. The general consensus was that the person with the pistol was able to dodge and weave and defeat the person with the scout rifle the majority of the time. If using the zoom function, this disparity is only amplified.

These results may very well be from our general suckiness with the scout rifle. Like I said, I haven't played scouts for a while. I'll be playing them a lot for a week or so to see if my opinion changes.

 

The problem is that every class poses a danger if left untouched let me explain:

Engineer: They are the most deadly; if they sneak into your base and are left uncheck; they can level your base with turrets and nade spam as well as deconstruct, very deadly...

Rifleman: A full supply of grenades can take out a building and the powerfull rifle will keep your tankers dead long enough for the enemy to shift the front in their favor

Grenadier: Mortar, Mines, Rocketlauncher all deadly to buildings and veichles; if you let one slip by, you might find your tanks blowing up before they even leave the base, your CV flipped belly up, or half of your buildings dead

Scout: Now here is a dousy... The rifle is nearly useless; the SMG's are outgunned by riflemen no problem, and the scout has no direct way of damaging the buildings; sure sabbotage is excellent when working as a team and a scout managed to be there when the enemy was expecting an assult, but in a real case the scout is dead because when the base is attacked; the entire team is there to defend it and if they see smoke; cameras go up, comm paints the scout and the scout is dead in seconds, with sabotage quickly going into smoke...

Suggestion

The gun has to be made into a long range harassment tool; that can outrange the rifleman, but once the rifleman gets in range; the scout stands zero chance (High damage slow reload high recoil weapon, perfect at harrasment or taking out tankers trying to repair)

The scout should be given some way of dealing DIRECT damage to buildings, effectivly changing it into a "Sabateur" role instead of a "Scout" Things that take time to set up, but if allowed to set up deal massive damage; so that if you are a commander and you see a scout sneaking around the base avoiding turrets you just dont think "Its a useless scout, cant hurt the buildings, better push the front line base, ill just quickly kill him with a tank, or let the turrets finish him off, and repair the sabotage"

Also every class can deal SOME damage to a staionary tank... The scout is totatly stranded, something to disable the tank would be welcome... Again some way to deal DIRECT damange to a tank will also benefit the class

Summary
-Scout should deal DIRECT damage to buildings as all clases have some way of doing that
-Some way of dealing DIRECT damage to tanks
-Scout should outrange ALL classes, but this strength is also his weakness as his high damage rifle doesn't have the pure firepower of a rifleman

 

Woah, ok, hold on here.

A scout is a scout. Just like an engineer is an engineer. An engineer builds things and supports the team, but isn't the all-out offensive leader (unless in a tank). A scout, scouts things.

Sound useless? Imagine trying to fight a battle with no intel about enemy dispositions at all. A scout's job is not even to sabotage, although I LOVE the feature. A scout's job is to look over enemy positions, spot for artillery, and be a very big pain in the ass.

During WWII, observers (like scouts with bionoculars) were the most sought-after targets, because as soon as the observer was dead, the enemy artillery began to be more sporadic. These observers didn't cause massive direct damage, sabotage anything, nor even snipe. But they provided a VITAL role to play in the war-effort, and once they were gone, every gun on your side would only be able to shoot blind.

Point blank, the scouts should defend themselves. SMG is fine. Scouts should act as observers, hiding with bionoculars. High-power rifle? Not scout's job. Light rifle/carbine, maybe.

 

Scouts are not unique. Anyone can spot
Except that EVERY unit can do the scout's job. Spotting can be accomplished by EVERYONE. If one were to design the scout strictly by Unit's definition, the class would be utterly, utterly, utterly useless. Artillery don't have long enough range and scouts aren't stealthy enough to be the observer class you describe. If artillery could go all the way across the map, then yes, sneaking a scout past a front line into an enemy base would be useful. But most, if not ALL of the time, the artillery target is immediately beyond the front lines, or maybe a few map squares past that, and it's incredibly easy to move ANY infantry unit within this visual range. A scout at the enemy base can NOT call an artillery strike that distance. And frankly, i don't think anyone here is going to suggest increasing artillery to do so.

Scouts are not that helpful in battle
The scout is the only class that can't assault effectively. Engineers, working in tandem, could revive themselves, slap turrets up, and lay down fire, and in most cases, yes, they CAN be all-out offensive leaders. Grenadiers can get near insta-kills w/ a mortar-pistol combo and take out anything the comm drops. Riflemen can, well, be riflemen. But scouts? scouts can't do jack.

remember, the idea here is "fuck realism." if we were going by ww2 stuff, engineers would NOT be able to revive the dead or heal. They wouldn't even be seeing combat most of the time. If we go by Unit's analysis, the engineer class would wait until the battle was over, then build a road for the tanks to advance. Maybe they'd build a M.A.S.H., who knows? Point is, you show me a player that wants this sort of realism in his game, and I'll show you someone who wants to use Maple, not play Empires. Bottom line: just because the name is scout doesn't mean it has to abide by that role 100%.

Analysis of Usefulness
I don't know if Shinzon is 100% on target suggesting damage to the tanks and buildings. Some thought should be put into a massive change like that. But I do know he's completely right about his evaluation of a scout's usefulness. Scouts CANT damage vehicles. Scouts DON'T provide much of a threat at ALL against front line bases or HQ bases unless followed instantly by a large scale assault team. Any damage they cause can be repaired at no cost, no hassle. ALSO, the scout can't even sabotage half-built buildings, or turrets.

Suggestions for the Scout
I don't care if the scout's rifle is removed or changed completely. All I want is for the scout to have a better application in the game, and I see the easiest way to do so as increasing their combat proficiency.

As for damaging vehicles, if at all needed, it should be applied creatively. Maybe make an EMP grenade that stuns the tank, or some sort of temporary overheating thing. The other classes can damage the tank, the scout could get some sort of vehicle sabotage that messes with the tank in some crazy way. Maybe he could disable a weapon, or halt it's movement, or something.

 

Lobster practically read my mind. I just want to say I agree with everything he says about the scout.

 

NOOOOOOOOOOO
u guys are all wrong, to make it the perfect gun (and not overpowered)

do this:

1) - increase the view distance it grants you, maybe 2 setting, far, and even further
2) - decrease its power wayyyyyyyyy down, so it takes say 5 body shots to kill, (but try and keep 1 headshot thingy on)

i reckon this would make it much more useful (i.e keeping people pinned down from afar), not as annoying (because with 5 shots, u have more than enough time to find cover), & finaly MUCH MUCH more entertaining to play with, and against.

the only downside i can see to this would be the cries of OMG where the hell are you. But in realistic terms these are unjustified, becuase after the first shot u know where they are (if not this then the second) and you still have 4 or 3 shots left (even if they hit with all of them) to run away, or towards them.

i would also recomend with this system, rather than the reload for everyshot have a few seconds of innacuracy between shots, so they have to wait, but can still keep there target, (and see where he's gone)

 

davee, if by a few seconds of inaccuracy between shots you mean not canceling zoom (going back to the normal screen) but rather staying zoomed in on your target, that is exactly what I recommend in the original post, and that is exactly what the poll is about.

 

It would be nice if the binoculars or the scope would actually see further, instead of just magnify what you can already see.

And tBL, you use Maple? That was developed by my school and I've got a few friends who work there. Pretty cool.

 

The only change i would make to the scout would be to reduce range dampening a tad. other than that, he seems fine: i really have no trouble using the scout rifle to kill all sorts of targets

also, his sabotage DOES do direct damage to buildings. savotage currently temporarily halves the health of buildings.

other abilities i would add:

an ability to sabotage turrets that have not seen the scout. this means that ML's that have seen the scout will also not be sabotagable

an ability to instantly destroy entirely unbuilt buildings (in a sabotage kinda way)

 

The original plan behind the scout.

The problem with making the rifle ultra long range is that it becomes a sniper rifle, because it functions like one. Some people are suggesting we make it a high damage long range slow reload rifle or, in short, a sniper rifle. Not going to happen. This has been shot down numerous times before. Look through the forums.

The other suggestion is that the rifle have increased range, but decreased damage or, in short, a bad sniper rifle. It looks like a sniper rifle, and acts like a sniper rifle, it must be a sniper rifle. Regardless of the intent of the weapon, it would be used as a sniper rifle. Also a bad idea.

 

I suggest

(Modified) Medium range Auto Carbine
(Modified) Slightly less visible violet smoke
(Modified) Binoculars that actually let you see farther
(Modified) Concussion grenades work on Turrets
(Modified) Smoke Grenades disable turrets if detonated right beside
(Added) Sabotaged tanks (have difficulty firing or something. Effect dependant on weapon or armour choice)
(Added) While a scout e-builds a building, it's invisible until fully built (countered by radar)

 

Why can't the scout just behave like more of a "scout"? You know, scouting things? All targets within the view of his binoculars should be marked whilst they are visible to him, and any buildings he marks should remain visible on the radar until destroyed (I mean, come on, the buildings hardly move around). There should be some kind of tracking device that he can fire onto vehicles and players, which also marks them on the radar until they die.

Knowing the movements of the enemy should be vital to a commander's success, at the moment it seems people don't seem to care what the enemy is up to. This should change, and the scout is the role that should do this. Hell, he could even steal research items from the enemy!

As for the rifle itself, I don't have much of a problem with it as it is. Keep the damage high, and remove the crosshair when it is un-scoped. Job done. If it requires 5-6 hits to kill an enemy, I can tell you now that it will be totally useless. I could kill you faster with a pistol from the same range. Scoring a hit with a single bullet deserves a reward, and that reward is a reasonable amount of damage.

 

ow man just mark the missing crosshair on your screen and the scout is a killing machine again..

 

all these suggestions are good. My only point in the original post was that the scout's rifle has been nerfed again and needs some sort of change.

I particularly like Broccoli's idea: this would give a use to binoculars, give the scout a unique spotting ability that is not ubiquitous to the entire infantry. Broccoli, you should refine and specify that idea and maybe put it in the suggestions thread. (heh heh; I suggest a suggestion be suggested in the suggestion section. Say that five times fast!)

Broccoli, I should point out that my problem with the rifle is that at anything but long range, unless you pull off the one hit kill with the scout or your target is literally miles away from cover, it actually IS more effective to use a pistol then to use the scout rifle, especially with the shotty pistol or the heavy pistol.

Also, KT, quite a few Indiana schools use Maple, that's pretty damn cool, except... we're actually planning to steal all of canada's technology. With ninjaneers.

 

Ok, a scout is meant to scout as everyone says, but the problem with that is scouting in modern days is simply pathfinding, which is more of an engineer role. Maybe if the scout could clear turrets easily or something, then it would be truly useful, rather than just another anti-infantry unit.