I kept forgetting to make this thread, even though I kept wanting to talk about it. As some of you may remember, for a period of a month and a half or so, there were research costs for tank chassis upgrades. Specifically, Upgraded Chassis cost 500 resources, Medium cost 1000 resources, Artillery 2000, Advanced 1500 and Heavy 1500. First, I decided that the cost of research should be around 2x - 3x the cost of a tank. Mediums are around 500 and Heavies around 1300, so I went with 1500 and 3000 respectively. Then I figured that those costs were too high up-front, so I moved 500 from Medium Chassis into Upgraded Chassis and split the 3000 between Advanced Chassis and Heavy Chassis. I figured to just put Artillery in between at 2000, for consistency. The result was that it would still cost the 3000 resources to get heavies, but it wouldn't be all at once, which I felt made it much more reasonable. (As a side note, this is why I support keeping subtrees with a single node in them; they give more flexibility in dividing out time and resource costs.) Now, the effects. The first major effect was that the early-game and the mid-game were drawn out much longer. On a relatively low resource map such as Canyon, it could easily hit 45 minutes before a team had heavies on the field, if they even managed to get them in the first place. 20, 30 minutes to mediums on such a map wasn't uncommon by any means. Many people I talked to said they enjoyed how the early parts of the game lasted longer, with more usage of LT's/AFV's, even into the mid-game. It also made the distinction between resource-light and resource-heavy maps much more noticeable. Whereas before, almost every map ended in heavies, it became quite possible for a map to end without either team getting heavies. Denying refineries became more important to preventing the enemy team from gaining a step above your current team, while holding them became more important to try and get heavies before your enemy. The downside was making it harder for a team to comeback. If one team had heavies, they could more easily take refineries, making it harder for the other team to get heavies. It also made it much harder for a losing team to research heavies and push out a large number of tanks all at once with a combination of wages and team resources. However, I didn't necessarily view this as entirely bad, because the end-game would be over with quickly in such a case. Some people also said that it would cause people to stack more, but I didn't notice anything of the sort. I am also of the belief that if a stacked team would've won with research costs for chassis, they would've also won without research costs for chassis. Still, I never held a proper discussion on the matter. I'm deathly curious on what other people have to think about it. Ideally, people who played both before the costs were added and while the costs were added. I certainly put more importance on actual experience rather than plain theorizing.
I'm one of those guys that thinks a single Classic round should be around 1,5 hours, so I am definitely not complaining.
Yeah, I liked the chassis costs. For the reasons you stated, longer early/mid games. A lot of people said something about making comebacks, but I really don't agree with this. I'll never understand people losing an entire round then win because heavies. It isn't like the commander argument against hard counters or what not, the whole team is failing to secure refs or spending all the money and then losing it. I also liked the fact there was a good reason to use the lock vf button. It isn't like people would suddenly be immobile either, that's the point of wages.
Weeell....I think the costs are a little high, though I still like the idea. In a way, having costs for everything in the tree rather spread this problem out a little more, even though sometimes heavy research was incredibly expensive anyway. I still think the only way to preserve comeback potential while still keeping resources relevant is to have a resource point system that only gets spent for research purposes. Yes that means having another layer to things, but it's a layer that doesn't really complicate things. It's a pretty simple mechanic for a single purpose.
I've always felt we should aim for 45-60 minutes personally. I think when I look back now, it actually seems obvious to me that I'm part of the reason the game sped up so much. It's only now that Candles re-added research cost that I realise that it was that which was stopping people getting Heavies inside 20 minutes. Raising the costs of those vehicles probably would have had the same effect, but wages came in to play at the same time and offset that. So yeah, definitely support the idea from Candles, anything to extend the early and mid game. Can't believe I never even realised that's what was speeding the game up until now.
You sure about that? The real question is what generates the points. If it's something map control related, like refs, it's somewhat pointless because it won't really change people not affording to make a comeback. Sure, people buying buildings or tanks won't affect these research points, but all that really does is make it so people have to care less about resources. I'm not convinced that's a good idea. If it's just something generated by the radar or some other building, it's the richer players able to afford more buildings and have the space to place said buildings. If you didn't make it so more buildings=more resources then what's the real difference to a simple timer that we already have? With all the other free research there isn't a reason to not be researching, so it isn't something that will accumulate over time anyway.
Okay so, firstly I'm not sure at all :p I actually should have wrote "the way to bridge the gap between comeback and res cost spacers" etc. And only shouldn't have been in there. Secondly, it would be linked to refs, and I really don't think anyone cares about res any more. They only care when it runs out. I used to watch the res count all the time, now I hardly ever do. Ask others if they're the same...I think the answer will probably be similar...at least that's my gut feeling. This way, I think people will actually have to care more about it, while both resources don't drain each other. In an earlier post the comeback was mostly attributed to res going to either tanks or research. You won't have to make this compromise here, but a lack of refs will still inspire doom just like it should anyway. We don't want to do away with a winning curve, just not consign a team to falling down a slope unduly. And lastly...this way you could have costs back for everything, which is a totally valid way of making research strategic.
The way I look at this second res pool suggestion is it's basically like when a bit of the paycheck goes to someone else. It's all your money, but you are forced to preemptively spend some of it somewhere. Or in other words its a forced savings account. The main difference here is I think the res would probably stay the same, so the same amount of buildings or vehicles will come out. So it's just extra res. This bothers me because the decision to save or not, to build some redundancy in a base or spam more apcs, is taken out. Like you said no one cares about res, and I said that it would result in less care if that was even possible. I want people to care a bit again, I want the commander to say, no we won't be spamming turrets everywhere because I want meds. To add on a thought about costs to everything if you added this, I think that would make the comeback even harder overall, or at least not make it any better. With everything else being free you can still get equipment for a better tank while you wait for res. This includes things your team can use right now, and stuff for future tanks.
I feel like this helps to ameliorate the problem. If you can't afford heavies right now, you can still improve your mediums or get upgrades you'll want later anyway.
I feel like it would add some good depth if you could actually spend resources to speed up research. Like everything should have a minimum research time but something like a slider bar that would allow you to have up to a 1.5x modifier or something but will drain some of your resources, should be pretty expensive, like 1 minute at max speed costing about the same as an artillery tank. I think ref control and resources should be a much bigger thing than it is right now
I don't think research cost has any obvious upside. But it definitely has quite a few downsides. It would kill a lot of chances for the losing team to come back. If both teams are 50-50, then it's just a plain cost for both teams, there's not much net effect.
I liked having the research cost something again. Made people even more aware that you gotta get out and hold ref points. Also, it makes people really think about do I want to bother researching arty for the sake of just researching something.
