Ok. I'm surprised this hasn't been suggested before. It might not be entirely popular to suggest this, since it speeds up the early game... but I think the comm's ability to push teammates really has to be removed. There are several ways this could be done, and, granted, there are some issues. The easiest way would be to have people get forcibly ejected to the side when their comm drives into them, or knocked prone (and let the comm move over them), or have it clip through them, or have it blocked by them, or even have it kill them -- the last two have issues that would probably make them less desirable, while clipping into your comm could be exploitable in its own way (hide inside and dart out to fire RPGs, say), but even with these, none of those issues can compare to the seriousness of the problem that pushing poses. Why is pushing a problem? Several reasons, but mainly it comes down to this: Pushing is something that has to be done very early in the game (in the first few moments, really). It is completely and entirely unintuitive, with no indication that it is there and no common-sense reason it would work. There is always going to be a learning curve, granted; but throwing pushing into it is simply stupid. Someone who understands the basic tech tree, building, and comm interface should be able to comm decently without having to know "secret tricks" (granted, not much of a secret, but still). And the advantage that pushing can grant a team is absurdly big, since so many maps have a 'win' location that grants an overwhelming advantage if you can hold it. A lot depends on what the comm does in the first few moments of a map, yes; I don't think that we need pushing contributing to this. Having games decided in the first thirty seconds because there's slight confusion over the comm is not fun at all. Comming is high-pressure enough already, and the first minute of the game is already plenty decisive. I think that, overall, the comm pushing simply makes the game a lot worse. A noob comm should still be able to be at least a little competitive if they listen to their team, read the manual, and spent a bit of time experimenting in an empty server... as a hackish 'secret trick', comm pushing massively takes away from this. (I could perhaps even personally favor extending this to removing the comm's ability to build early expansions completely in some fashion or another, even by driving the comm over and building it yourself, but that's not quite as serious, since that is at least somewhat more intuitive than pushing... and it carries more risk, since you have to get out of the CV and could leave it helpless if an enemy manages to reach or snipe you. Also, the comm's ability to build things themselves is valuable in some other ways, and not nearly so silly and unintuitive as pushing... I wouldn't want to see that completely removed.)
I disagree. Comms weren't able to push till recently, and before that players got caught in vehicles all the time, and it's no fun having a heavy roll over you, stop, then die. You're stuck there till the dead tank disappears, completely useless. That's pretty unintuitive too.
I have no problem with vehicles other than comms pushing. (After all, if you have a VF up and can afford vehicles, you can just get an APC, no big deal.) The issue is people using comms to move lots of people around very fast in the first 30 seconds of the game so they can fortify key locations before (non-pushing) people have any chance of reaching them. Since the comm shouldn't be moving around much anyway, why not just put it back the way it was before -- for the comm only? Heavies can still push, that doesn't matter. There's nothing exploitive in 'heavy pushing'. But there's no real reason why players should regularly be in a situation with their comm driving at them, either... the only reason it happens now is because they exploit the pushing mechanic. So having the comm roll over you is still fine (and for obvious reasons, if the comm rolls over you, then dies, you have more serious problems to worry about.)
I agree, Aquillion. I already wanted to suggest this, but forgot it again. It's kind of a bug, but nobody thinks this because everyone knows and uses it. Either completely remove it or change something so that the comm can transport a few soldiers regularly.
It used to be friendly vehicles would kill you if they ran over you. IIRC it was taken out because it caused lag. Maybe when the orange box porting is done it can be re added.
The reaason roadkill in general was taken out way back when, was indeed because of the lag. When it was put back in (v2.0) after optimizations however, it was restricted to enemy only to prevent team-killing and griefing. Being pushed by friendly vehicles is a side-effect, and using this side-effect to push half a team with the CV is an exploit in my book, just like clipping into geometry or 9-mining out of map bounds. In terms of the solution, getting stuck inside dead (or live) vehicles is not fun and makes the game look buggy. I'd vote for modifying the game so that all friendly vehicles push players at a 45 (or more) degree angle, instead of straight ahead (of course with proper checks for getting stuck or being pushed out of bounds, for example). Not sure of how feasable that is though. Does it have to do with vehicle collision meshes being a particular shape?
That's a good idea, this would allow the comm to rush without having to employ a dumb bug... I suggest that those other seats are simply on the outside of the comm vehicle, soldiers just sit on the sides of the cvs top and can be transported in a decent matter, but are also pretty exposed. Could be 2-4 seats I guess. If that's in, pushing should be completely removed though.
make the front of the hitbox of the comm slightly sloped to one side, so that people get pushed to one side and then fall off. as much as i think it's funny, I agree it's not proffessional, it's hacky.
I think commander pushing was added lately because otherwise people could get under some maps when they were in prone and command vehicle drove over them.
Is it a good approach to just change a bug into something like a bug-feature because it can't be fixed in five minutes? I think it's technically possible to implement everything we have suggested in this thread. The only question at the moment should be if what we suggested is good and helps making Empires better. In my opinion it is.
I think pushing from every vec should be to the side. I remember enough unintended pushings over a quarter of the map just because a random friendly tank doesnt noticed me in front of it.
Yeah vehicle pushing is pretty bad, but with all the other vehicles just get in as a passenger and step out again.
This has been suggested several times during the beta and was shot down, because it would give every team an extremely heavily armored APC right at the start. A lot of things have been balanced to prevent early game APC rushes, and this would not only nullify them, but make rushes the standard tactic.
I remember this....someone would park a jeep on you, get out, kill you, drive away and do it to someone else. It sucked.
It's fairly common from what I've seen, and when the comm says 'push' usually several people will run in front of them (and the rest will quickly catch on.) Not enough to happen every game, but when it does start happen people will often do it for several games in a row. It happens moreso on some maps than others (since it's more suitable to some maps than others). Comm push rushes to the north seem extremely common on Mvalley in particular, since a well-established high-up barracks there can be hard to dislodge, while the narrow bridges and long, flat, straight path (with one turn) from either base to the north makes pushing very easy and effective (a team that walks the whole distance will be far behind, while an enemy comm that tries to build the base alone will be badly outnumbered.) If a team comm rushes a few people to the north while everyone else rushes the dam, and manages to capture and reinforce both, it can be pretty decisive in the first few seconds of the map. It happens on cyclopean, too (especially comm rushes to the city), but is less decisive because that map has fewer 'I win' points... it can still give a big advantage, though. Likewise, Dust Storm rushes to the ruins or the center (or rushing towards the ruins, with some people getting off midway to the center). It also happens to some extent on Isle, with people using it to rush to the northwest island, but since the paths aren't as straight there it's slightly harder. For some reason I've barely ever seen it on streetsoffire, although you'd think the map would be perfect for it. Maybe the narrow streets and limited routes make it too dangerous, since it can be tough for your comm to retreat if something goes wrong (unlike almost every other map, where very-early-game the comm has no trouble getting away as long as they don't let enemy engineers walk right up to them and drop walls.) Money doesn't have anyplace worth rushing (well, unless you want to try and claim part of the enemy base -- which I've seen work once, and almost guarentees victory, but isn't likely to work except with tiny teams or against an already-incompetant opposition.) And Crossroads is both too small for it to have a major effect, and has too many potholes and close quarters to make it safe (although I've still seen it done a short distance, just to get to the center that much earlier).
