Pug - Saturday 29th 21:00 GMT/4pm EST/1pm PST

Basically every game got kinda stomped because of APC rushes.
I think Trickster said it best - everyone thought they were too good to chase down an APC or to kill spawn. People in APCs rushing were good enough to coordinate rushes but no teams could get it together to defend at all.

 

2nd Saturday of January I'll make the thread.tomorrow

 

The system Paradox has of pre-chosen teams has good sides and bad sides. On the good side, if people are playing with the same guys each round and they're actually trying to compete against the other team, then they're more likely to play properly and actually try to win harder. Chances are, such easy APC rushes wouldn't stand nearly as much of a chance. On the bad side though, it won't get a lot of the pubbers who don't use the forum or get that involved with the community. This is bad because those are the people we want to introduce to higher level play.

I'm not sure how to strike a balance.

 

Get some pr out in the servers telling pubbers to sign up.
I'll let anyone play if they mind signing up and being available that day.

 

TBH I much prefer games of ~25v25. Any more than that and I think you do need to start assigning atleast a commander and squad leaders before the round starts.

32v32 gets so hectic on the mic & means that you can always spare an APC full of people without ever leaving the front line weak.

It is a shame Chain was a failround because I think that is one of the only maps that really accommodates a full 60 odd people properly. Midbridge too for that matter isn't too bad. Pity someone griefed the BE CV in the first pug on 2.4, the first time we've managed to fill a server for months.

Still, I hope we get a good turn out for the next one and I do think it is worth organsing one like before, I'd happily lead a nub squad around doing support & I could easily get them on the forum and in game.

 

Seriously guys...Has nobody else noticed the trend here :D

 

By the time Chain rolled around, there were only 11 people left on each side, so it really wasn't that much of a loss.

 

oh shiitt i spaced

 

My true feelings for the game at this point are very mixed. I don't think I can play Empires anymore cause of all the stupid shit added. I have no idea what the scripts are nor am I being warned that my commander vehicle is under attack. The target system is useless to me since it is only good for catching scouts. The one time I found it useful was when I was targeting infantry for my squad at the dam (BE only sent very few people there). I did know you were rushing my main on Mvalley and I didn't have much time to do anything about it. I can't leave my commander view nor quickly switch around from one side of the map to the other without getting a 5-10 second crash message everytime.

This is not the future of Empires PUGs as I imagine it. It was just overall a bad experience since the majority of our games consisted of quick wins (mostly due to me and Zeke). It shouldn't be that easy to do that.

This was worse than a pubber game. At the very least in a pubber game you would have 5 people kill spawn. I only had 3 during that mvalley match. It has to do with the players thinking someone else will killspawn or the fact that they just mute the commander (I won't mention any names for the sake of keeping this thread clean.)

If we go with Paradox's system, I would like it so we could get people from inside the game to participate in the PUGs. We could do this by advertising a thread on various servers (with permission from server owners) or even having a feature in the game where people can sign up onto a list for weekly PUGs. Captains should also be voted on by the community. I'm tired of leading a bunch of idiots. That's why I draft people to do it for me.

 

In my case it has to do with not being sure what's expected of me. I hear trickster ask for help (though not yet the request to killspawn to main) but i see some players moving in main on the minimap. So i go "Does he expect me to abandon south for this or is he talking to people closer by. Being on the other side of the map i then decide for myself i should continue according to the last orders he gave our squad specifically because map control is important as well.

The moment however i hear the request to killspawn i do so, but 20 seconds later i hear "we're losing the south" and i go "well obviously, everyone is in main, it's what the commander wanted"

There are commanders who think the way i do, and they don't have to tell me explicitly what to do because it all turns out right. But there are more players who have a very different way of communicating that i can't interpret right and leaves me clueless about what's expected of me.

How often haven't i killspawned in the past just for the danger to be dealt with already during the 7 seconds i had to wait to spawn.

Also i mute everyone except for the comm, the squadleaders and my squadmates. Too much useless voice chatter interfering with important information otherwise.

Also the reason i stopped playing much earlier than i planned to, was because i got really tired of old time veterans complaining about each and every thing in the most childish way i can imagine. Damnit how immature can you still be. Even if you where 13 when you started playing empires, you should be an adult by now.
Also if that stops ME from playing, after hanging out on the forums since day 1, imagine how an average new player reacts.

 

That Gif looks like your round on midbridge...

Also, funny how no one seemed to get any concrete evidence on what happened, eventhough our comm YELLED for quite some time.

I inspected the demos I recorded and seem to have found the person responsible for this grief, see if you can spot him.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7689490/29122012pug_5.rar

and 3minute wait between every round = 21minutes. So fully about 1/4 was just waiting for game to start. I think I have whined enough about this subject, and you have seen my point of view, so I won't mention it anymore. (oh it seems it was 200seconds, so ~23minutes, but q_q).

But yeah, too much elitism and way too many rushes. Few rounds I played and gathered a squad from HANDPICKED VETERANPLAYERS, I only got 1-2 to work as a team, and rest were just goofing around, not working as a squad.

Everyone seems to have the "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me" attitude, which is fine, If few people mix up the pot, but if all do it then it just doesn't work. Everyone dicking around and apc rushing turns the game into a coin toss. People don't want to play anymore, they just want to win.

 

One of the problems was that not only was this a new version, but a good number of the players hadn't played in over half a year. Hell, some of them haven't played an actual in over a full year. Most of the "vets" are veterans of Empires 2.12, 2.24, 2.3, but very few of the people there had gameplay experience with 2.4. And it's an entirely new dynamic; free research, weakened vehicles, armor and engine specific attributes.

And this is the second problem with the vets. Although they are new to this version of Empires and are rusty with the core game itself, they have that veteran attitude anyway. To put it bluntly, most vets right now are complete shit with doing things that win the game. Everyone wants to be a millionaire and no one wants to clean the shitters, but someone has to build refs and be willing to give up their K/D ratio or their personal pride to killspawn and save the CV. Like in the first round in Duststorm on NF, while Trickster was dying in the CV most of the team was focused on taking BE's main. It's great that the people took it, but then we lost all of ten seconds after we had it. Killspawning in general, however, is a special type of issue.

This *should* be dealt with using the higher level of play expected in a pug. If each squad is where they're supposed to be, then the comm should be able to glance at the map, decide which squad(s) is/are able to killspawn to deal with the problem, and then have them do it. But when you have players all over the map not following their squad leaders, then the comm can't just say "Alpha Charlie Killspawn" because he has to spend time seeing where each member is.

And comms *should* be specifically telling which squads to killspawn anyway. If the comm see two engineers outside the base, he shouldn't be telling the whole team to killspawn, that's just bad comming. Even if it's just picking a squad out of a hat, it's still better than just yelling "KILLSPAWN" into the mic.

If only we had squad-channels. That'd make it so much easier.

 

So was it you or not, because I was a engineer the whole time so I couldn't have done it.
I don't exactly know how to run demo files.

Edit: Alright, after many hours of detective work and a message to Steve later.

5:53 AM - Steve_[UK]: i have the offender on screen . hes username is concealed
5:53 AM - Steve_[UK]: working on it
5:53 AM - Boss BigTeef: your seriously telling me you cant pam the camera over the BE base
5:53 AM - Boss BigTeef: and wait for the round starts
5:54 AM - Steve_[UK]: i have his username
5:54 AM - Steve_[UK]: assuming its his common name
5:54 AM - Steve_[UK]: [PRKL] Werihukka
5:54 AM - Boss BigTeef: Like I said somebody may have changed their name when they did it
5:54 AM - Boss BigTeef: so be sure
5:55 AM - Steve_[UK]: demo files can only reveal so much
5:55 AM - Steve_[UK]: that's the name above his head at present
5:55 AM - Steve_[UK]: gimme moment
5:55 AM - Boss BigTeef: check the score board for a duplicate name
5:56 AM - Steve_[UK]: quite a funny demo i must say
5:56 AM - Steve_[UK]: but that was his name
5:56 AM - Steve_[UK]: if i play the demo back from start to finish it may reveal more
5:56 AM - Steve_[UK]: however im sleepy :-P
5:56 AM - Steve_[UK]: and score boards do not display from demo recordings
5:56 AM - Boss BigTeef: Alright thanks
5:58 AM - Steve_[UK]: its cute :-)
5:59 AM - Steve_[UK]: definately [PRKL] Werihukka
5:59 AM - Steve_[UK]: that joined alpha squad
6:00 AM - Steve_[UK]: seemed to say very little
6:00 AM - Steve_[UK]: not sure if he had a mic
6:00 AM - Steve_[UK]: [PRKL] Werihukka: vittukettuhukka
6:00 AM - Steve_[UK]: only word said
6:01 AM - Steve_[UK]: interesting devlopment
6:01 AM - Steve_[UK]: the persion that was actually recording the demo
6:01 AM - Steve_[UK]: did the final 9 mine det
6:01 AM - Steve_[UK]: you hear me?
6:01 AM - Boss BigTeef: yeah
6:02 AM - Boss BigTeef: I get what your saying
6:02 AM - Steve_[UK]: 2 ppl involved
6:02 AM - Steve_[UK]: the first name
6:02 AM - Steve_[UK]: and the guy that did the recording
6:03 AM - Steve_[UK]: am i done then?
6:03 AM - Boss BigTeef: Yes
6:03 AM - Steve_[UK]: was i of any use?
6:03 AM - Boss BigTeef: greatly
6:03 AM - Steve_[UK]: im glad
6:04 AM - Steve_[UK]: ill keep the demo handy it seems amuseing yet somewhat upsetting
6:04 AM - Steve_[UK]: so who made the recording ? :-p
6:05 AM - Boss BigTeef: The other one who had PRKL in their name


I am ashamed of both of you.

God bless you sir for muting everybody except BigTeef, you have a big heart.

Now for regarding APC rushes.
I learned my lesson hard when I was just starting to com, and sense im paranoid I always check my surroundings and place myself in a spot I can easily use to escape.
Also I cover myself in missile turrets so I can use them as a buffer for escaping.
The way I play is I always listen to is in charge, my Squad leader or Commander.
Security was my squad lead most of the time when I did infantry rounds.

Now the way I play commander is different, because what I try to do is have fun with it.
I can troll and play a serious game the whole time, so if I am saying retarded shit over the microphone I am usually doing something important.
Its a training tool I use so I can multitask better if the need ever comes.
And Canyon is my favorite map, because the enemies are in the canyons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f3waZ9GYgM

 

It indeed was he.

 

I don't think it was really representative, the past couple of days before this we had been playing pretty good games. I think its just really easy to turn a server with that many individuals into a clusterfuck.

 

Yeah we've had great games in the weeks before, much more than in the past.

We've never had 60+ players though, and matches play out completely different that way.

Actually that hasn't changed since 2 years ago at all for me. I always preferred 48 players to 64.

Also the danger of apc rushes really can be quite annoying, especially when many people are playing. You're halfway across the map thinking "shall i keep pushing back their lines, or just fortify this position untill i have to killspawn which will be asked of me quite a lot in the next 20 minutes".

APC's are fast and extremely dangerous, and they can be built long before you have vehicles that can destroy them easily. That forces infantry on foot, who obviously can't keep up with a vehicle, to killspawn every time a single apc manages to get through the lines, which means losing that line as well.
Also any damage the apc gets underway can be repaired in 3 seconds by the engineers onboard the apc itself, which can't be said about an afv or light tank who CAN keep up with it.

APC's are definitely king during the first 15 minutes of a game, but remain dangerous up to the very last second.

They'll be the cause for many short games to come

 

I wont do a sign up for weekly pugs cause people who sign up wont be there weekly anyway, if you sign up you play, if you sign up and you aren't there with a reason you aint playing next one. It's that simple empires need discipline or all goes to shit, I cant have a list of 100 people where 2 caps need to pick from only to have 40 people show up ( exageration for them idiots ).

Anyway threads being made as we speak

 

Just had to quote that for later use :-D.

Simple and clear message that worked brilliantly, and that produced the best round of the pug. You should actually be thanking me for that.

 

This, right here, is the crux of the issue. It is completely impossible to pick specific groups of players to killspawn when they're not sticking with their squads. You can say "Alpha" squad even when they're not together, but chances are it'll fall completely on dead ears, because they aren't actually listening to squad specific orders. The lack of squad organisation, or rather, outright ignorance to any attempt to organise via squads, was appalling. I saw 2 rounds in which squads actually stuck together on my team. One was Duststorm. It was going pretty well, but on this occasion, when I said "EVERYONE KILLSPAWN", I meant everyone. Not most, not a general thing, but I wanted every single player on the entire team to get back to main at that moment, because we were losing the CV. I even specifically said, EVERYONE ON THE TEAM at one point. It didn't happen, and we lost. I could have just listed every squad, but it was pointless, I didn't have time for that. I do want to point out that, however funny you might think it is, getting squads lower down the list is really confusing for commanders, because they can't just bring up a nice reference of every squad and their members easily, they have to waste time scrolling. Know that, when you are being an asshole and using Zulu squad, you are griefing the team. I honestly think I might get the latter squads removed for the next version, unless we can implement population ordering in the squad list.

On Isle, the match was turning into a really good one until for reasons I don't understand, NF essentially griefed. I have no idea what the fuck was going on with NF there, but driving your CV and a single APC into our main when you had more than 50% of the map was so fucking dumb.

At the end of the day, it is essential that a commander can select groups of players as soon as possible. Any extra time spent working things out is time that loses you the game. Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf and Hotel. If I look at that minimap, I need to be able to see groups of As, Bs, Cs and whatever, and then just pluck one to do what I want. On top of that, squads themselves need to understand the concept of laning, or the squad leader does. I cannot believe, with the amount of Dota players in Empires, that no-one understands such a simple concept of objective prioritisation. I respect that not everyone has a mic, but a squad leader needs to lead their squad, not just be the guy dishing powers out.