Mines Damage vs. Infantry

Discussion in 'Bug Reports' started by .:.HeXi.:. emcalex329, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    you cant touch security his unspoken favorite class, dont kill me security i know its engineer
     
  2. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    i was so going to say techies ^^
     
  3. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Dayem.
    But you know, I didn't touch mine's anti-vehicle ability at all.

    Techies's mine has a much longer cooldown and it doesn't one shot you, right?
     
  4. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    Depends though, if you are a low hp support against that level 4 techies mine you dead nigguh
    Also its completely different games, cooldown in empires and cooldown in dota arent the same at all
    I mean I can only shoot my "canon" in dota once every 10 seconds
     
  5. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    one doesnt (unless youre a glass cannon), but theyre invisible until you step into their detonation radius which leaves you 1.smthg seconds to get out again.
    especially dota is a bad example for you since in this game you can die faster than you realize youre dead, there are a few one shots (at least against non-strength heros)
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  6. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Yes, "if" you are a low hp guy.
    Also come on I played my moba as well, when I said "cooldown", I was referring to "the time it takes to set em all up".
    Now that you look at Empires again, it takes 1 second for a gren to set up something that unconditionally one-shots infantry. (engi/gren without defusal/rifle/scout)

    You can't really say that "an infantry dies in Empires" is not the same as "a hero dies in Dota", sure, the importance is not the same, but the effect towards the player himself is the same, you have to respawn and walk all the way back.
    Not to mention in Empires you are very likely to step on another mine.
    In Dota? Well, it's a video on Youtube.
     
  7. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    Still dont think you can compare dota mechanics to empires mechanics, on a general level yes development wise. But not what you are doing here.
    The 2 arent comparable at all in so many levels. Ill just name a few: If you die in dota you give the other team gold experiene. If you die in dota you might not respawn for like x minutes. In empires I dont fucking care Ill be back up in 10 seconds or get revved.
    The impact of techies mines are actually considerably larger than empires mines. Imagine 3 heroes dying all at once with a 90 seconds cooldown to respawn. And that from takin 1-2 minutes of setting up.
    Techies mines scale really well into the lategame and become exponentially better.
    Empires mines scale linearily.
    Another large difference you bring up aswel. In dota you have different heroes that have high hp low hp, different item sets enhancements. In empires you have fuck all except hp upgrade

    tldr: cant compare specific mechanics in empires in dota
     
  8. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    I know the mechanics aren't exactly the same.

    The point is that I want people to take a look at : "How's landmines doing in Empires against infantry?".

    and I want people to project the exact same mechanic onto any other game they play.

    Do we really have to stick with this mechanic?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  9. D.D.D. Destroyer

    D.D.D. Destroyer Member Staff Member Moderator

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    This is the subjective part of the equation I was talking about.

    Speaking of other games. A better comparison would be, in my opinion, StarCraft 2's high-damage weapons - Raven Seeker Missiles, Battlecruiser Yamato Cannons, Infestor Fungal Growths, High Templar Psionic Storms...

    And then there's Baneling landmines, but those need to be manually detonated like a 9mine, which isn't affected by the change in question.
     
  10. .:.HeXi.:. emcalex329

    .:.HeXi.:. emcalex329 Member

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    Look, I really don't have a bone in this argument, because I hardly play anymore anyway, and frankly, I don't care enough to take sides, so I'll just leave things off by saying this:

    1. New(er) players have been complaining far more about riflemen than they do about grenadiers, at least from I've observed these last two weeks or so.
    2. I have never seen a new(er) player complain about dying to a mine. I have, however, seen one complain about me surviving one with HP upgrade.

    Also:
    I know this is sarcastic, but I wouldn't mind seeing some of these changes come back in. Bio weapons should absolutely destroy infantry. I hadn't realized that bio weapons no longer had that effect - no wonder why bio seems so weak and somewhat useless this version (except for biomg, which is way too powerful against tanks it seems).

    Also, I had no idea that infantry classes have a resist against nukes. 45% or 0% all seem equally meaningless to me.

    And honestly, it's not going to be a popular opinion, but I wouldn't mind being able to damage turrets with infantry weapons. Turrets are truly the most irritating parts of games - they kill and frustrate far more new players than mines do, I can assure you of that, especially if the enemy team gets level 3s. New players will quickly learn to circumvent mines, and generally speaking, if a new player steps on one, their first reaction is not going to be "oh bullshit, I stepped on a mine, why am I dead?" - but rather "oh, I better try not to do that next time." I've often seen new players shoot at turrets, however, and just die to them - I can imagine that that would be far more frustrating of a feature, especially since you can kill engineer cameras/radars with bullets, so that it doesn't really make sense to me that turrets can't take some damage from them as well.

    And the "every cannon and missile will do 200 damage to infantry thing" is a completely different ball game, and you know it. A mine is static, single use, and relatively easy to avoid if you are playing infantry. A tank is not any of those things.

    [Removed, because admittedly unfair to Security, upon some reflection.]
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
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  11. .:.HeXi.:. emcalex329

    .:.HeXi.:. emcalex329 Member

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    Also, I just saw this - apologies for posting twice, but why? Again, I don't care enough actually to look at the numbers, but HE just feels so much weaker this patch. What exactly is HE's role in this case? I've always thought that Ranged cannon was the anti tank cannon, and HE was the more sort of general utility cannon - is it really necessary for HE to have a -10% damage modifier against infantry? I mean, again, I much prefer to play infantry to vehicles, so personally this would be more of a boon to me than anything, but did anybody ask for this HE nerf?

    Edit:

    There are two "legitimate" classes that serve as vehicle drivers. 1. Grenadier, in which case it would be your fault for not having defusal, and 2. engineer. As an engineer, if you drive over a mine with an early game tank, you will either be heavily damaged or destroyed. If you are heavily damaged, you can repair your tank, gain points, and even wages in return. If you drive over a mine with a mid to late game tank, you'll be slightly damaged, and again, you can easily repair your tank. The only way for a grenadier to destroy a mid to late game tank is to put mines down in stacks of 3-5... in which case the grenadier should probably get the kill if the enemy drives over mines without defusal anyway. Hell, placing single mines is quite useless against tanks - I know that as an engineer, I'll deliberately drive over single mines just to "defuse" them, and back when I used to command occasionally, the CV was always a great minesweeping vehicle.

    Again, this argument doesn't make sense, and you know it. It is indeed easy to get more kills than the points the second player has - but you'd have to adopt a certain, very specific play style in order to do that. If everyone were actively trying to rack up kills at the expense of everything else, your team would likely not succeed, because the way you earn points is ridiculously lopsided in this game. If you go rifleman and kill the people spilling out of the APC at main while ignoring the APC itself, you can easily get a ton of kills; if you go grenadier and take down the APC, which is generally much more difficult, you get two or three points. Somebody can be useful to the team without getting a lot of kills, and indeed, every team will need people who just want to build things, who are willing to get refineries and killspawn even if it messes up their killstreak or whatever, and who are good at taking down tanks - and those people can be just as useful, if not more so, than somebody who is good at killing the enemy team. But learning to avoid mines is a skill that slots neatly into any play style; it's something that any type of player should be able to do.

    To sum it up: Getting more kills than the second player has points comes about as a result of a certain gameplay style. Learning to avoid mines is a general skill in the game that everybody, regardless of preferred gameplay style, ought to have.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  12. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    Too bad security cant admit this cause he hates being told ayyoooooooo

    Also security takes things way to personally when it comes to development
     
  13. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Last reply, something is kinda out of the line.
    Hexi, I sent you a PM.

    Here's my decision-making behind nerfing mines.

    What are landmine's properties (for infantry)?
    1: One-hit death.
    2: No interaction.
    3: Can be placed inside buildings or places that are hard/virtually impossible to avoid.
    4: Gren can place 8 of them.
    5: Not very visible. (If you compare with the tripmines in Half-Life)
    6: Easy to set up, no cost, available from get-go.

    Do you think new players would come to you about every bullshit in this game?
    No, they just uninstall.

    Also I don't know why you, or anyone's bringing up rifleman at this point, it's irrelevant.
    I did nerf rifleman's resist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  14. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    Welcome to second half of 10's where feedback is harrasment.
     
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  15. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    Giving feedback is litterally attacking people personally now, dont you know that
     
  16. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    thank god in 2 weeks we'll have Donald Trump to fix that
     
  17. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Funny that you say this, aren't you the guy who unfriended me when I gave you my "feedback" about your "feedback"?
    Can't take a little return fire I guess.

    People always think they are open to "feedback", until they take over the position themselves.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  18. .:.HeXi.:. emcalex329

    .:.HeXi.:. emcalex329 Member

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    [Removed, because decidedly unfair to Security, upon reflection.]
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  19. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    First, it's funny that you or anyone think that someone who spent 7k+ hours on this game hasn't tried out everything in this game for at least a few hundred of hours and/or can't draw a full picture of the game.
    Seriously, as the guy who quitted the game for almost a year(and wasn't even super active before that), I thought you'd be a little more humble with statements like this.

    Second, I failed entirely to see how saying "I favor one class over the other trying to balance them...etc" is not suggesting that I am making changes based on my own interest.
    Why wouldn't I instead nerf engineers because I know just how useful they are? Why do you tend to think that simply because someone plays a lot of engi/rifle/gren/scout or even comm, he would choose to buff it?
    Have you lost faith in humanity? Like, I am not joking here.

    I tried to maintain this in PM but you leaked it.
    I'll just say you are being ridiculously disrespectful for denying my neutrality and profession.

    Last, you are being ignorant for saying that "someone shouldn't be doing his job." isn't offensive on its own, especially publicly and especially when the guy is already into the job.
    Z00m shouldn't be doing particles.
    Trump shouldn't be doing sounds.
    Destroyer&lamer shouldn't be doing maps.
    Tama & Thexa shouldn't be coding.

    When you say this, it's like you just think the guy would fuck up the job, or already fucked up the job, like, even pointing out what's wrong seems to be redundant.

    This was a nice "hello" from you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  20. .:.HeXi.:. emcalex329

    .:.HeXi.:. emcalex329 Member

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    Ok - you know what, Security? You're right. I apologize for coming off as harsh as I did, and I can see how you would take some of my statements the way you have. I've no interest in causing more bad blood in this community over something this trivial. I also recognize that I shouldn't have made the PM public, but personal experience has taught me that it's best to keep communication out there, so as to avoid the unnecessary drama of "he said" "she said."

    Let me just sum up my point by saying: I still think mine damage should be reverted, but I've no desire to come to blows with you over this.
     

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