In the 'decline comm' thread, someone mentioned how so many skilled comms and experienced players don't like to comm in Empires. They noted how people tend to hate comming in empires and NS, but like it in BF2. So. Is it just not fun enough to be the comm in Empires? Should there be gameplay changes to address this? If so, what? Personally, I think that at the moment Empires leans a bit too much on the FPS side... it's natural, since (overall) there's so much more player-hours spent in FPS view than in comm view, that suggestions would overall have favored improving FPS view and reducing/limiting the role of the comm. But this has lead to a situation where the comm basically just drops some initial buildings and, later on, forward bases/defenses, sets research priorities, then desperately shouts orders that the team generally ignores. One possibility that occurs to me: Award points to people who obey the comm. To limit abuse, this can't be "one point for reaching a location the comm ordered you to", of course, or people would use it to grind endless points... Instead, it would be like the existing team points. Every so often, if players have completed a comm objective recently (reaching a location they were ordered to, killing a target they were ordered to, whatever) they get a point. If they haven't received or completed any objectives recently, they don't. Completing a lot in a row doesn't earn you more, so there's no incentive to 'grind' them, but players will want to generally do what the comm tells them so they can get 'command operations points' or whatever. Possibly, on the comm's player list, show which players have orders at the moment, and how long it's been since the comm gave them their last order. This would encourage the comm to ensure that everyone on the team has some sort of order, and would avoid the frequent situation where the comm orders someone to build something, then forgets about them or leaves them to their own devices. Still, I don't think that alone would make being comm that much more fun... The problem is that, at the moment, once buildings are up and research is going, players can basically ignore the comm completely, beyond asking for an occasional ref, forward barracks, or attack order on someone they're already fighting. All of those things are mechanical and repetitive... a robot could do them just as easily as the comm. Another possibility is to give the comm 'comm points' in the same way that squad leaders currently get 'squad points'; these could be spent on comm powers that indirectly help the team in some fashion or another. The comm would earn comm points slowly as long as they ensure that their team has orders (but, like above, it wouldn't be one-comm-point-per-order, but instead they'd earn comm points at a constant rate as long as some of their orders are being carried out)... since they're restricted by comm points, they couldn't just spam their powers and make soldiers obsolete, but they could give a nudge at a key point. They should also probably be limited to places near your soldiers, of course. (Another suggestion for comm powers is here, which has some good ideas... I think doing it with a squad-point like mechanism that has a fixed point generation rate as long as the comm is giving orders is better, though, since that would keep the comm powers from dominating play, and would avoid creating yet another advantage for a team with lots of res.) But what sort of comm powers would they get? Should they be subtle and slight or powerful and immediate? Command nuclear strike, or command slight-brief-accuracy boost? A 'comm revive' on an individual soldier, say? Or a comm boost that temporarily raises a soldier's abilities? Command artillery? Comm heal / comm supply, either healing and/or providing ammo directly to a unit, or dropping some temporary ammo and/or health boxes? Instant turrets, which drops completed and functional turrets? Command smoke to obscure an area? Command build / command repair? Perhaps a 'super attack order' to all nearby units, which you target a single enemy with... this increases the damage all friendly units do to that unit, too (you send them intel on its weak points, or whatever.) If used on a tank, it allows infantry bullets to do (slight) damage to its armor, maybe? Perhaps the ability to drop 'comm beacons' that grant bonuses to any allied soldiers nearby? The ability to create a temporary spawn point? A satellite sweep that reveals all enemy units and buildings on a particular part of the map for a limited time? As comm, I often get frustrated by the fact that I'm generally pretty useless beyond giving wide-sweep attack orders once a fight starts... I think I'm more involved than most comms (I try to pull tricks like dropping walls to cut off enemy tanks from retreating or advancing, say, or to give my troops cover), but there's only so much a comm can do, and I'm not sure that that even helps. The game is not designed to encourage comm involvement in combat at the moment... which might seem like a good idea in an abstract sense, but from a practical standpoint it means that nobody wants to comm. I know a lot of people aren't going to like some of these idea; most people play soldier way more than they do comm, and this would dramatically increase the comm's role at the expense of soldiers (nobody would like to get comm artied--although, of course, nobody likes to get squad artied, either). But, when you get down to it... the game has to be fun for both soldiers and comms, and at the moment, it seems as if it just isn't fun enough for the comm. This is one of the few suggestions here, I think, that would definitely make people want to be the comm (and make them want to give orders, and make the team want to obey those orders, since that's how comm points are earned). And don't forget, a slow rate of comm point generation would keep it from being overwhelming... Another idea, with less gameplay balance impact: Allow comms to draw on the minimap. No, seriously, imagine how neat it would be if your comm could draw stereotypical Football-style gameplan arrows on the minimap for the entire team to see (on their minimaps)... some modern RTSes use this to let teams communicate in team games. It'd be a neat way for the comm to coordinate the entire team, as opposed to giving orders to individual units. I don't know, there's a lot of different possibilities... I think that any substantive expansion of the comm's role is going to be unpopular, since most people, when you get down to it, play the game as a FPS, not an RTS. But I think that this is a serious issue... I've seen entire servers go downhill because of this. Nobody wants to comm, one team keeps ending up with awful or disinterested people as a result, and games become boring and one-sided... I half-suspect that the reason why there are generally only a few active Empires servers has less to do with playerbase and more to do with the fact that there aren't really enough people who like to comm to keep more servers running smoothly. EDIT: Oh, I had one other idea, and this one's a bit more original. Instead of all the above, why not let the comm join the battle? It's simple enough; by clicking a 'spawn field commander' button, the comm can spawn as a soldier at any of their spawn points, while keeping control over the CV. As a field commander, the comm can still switch between comm and field view by hitting a key; they just move around as a soldier, and get a better view of what they're doing. If their field commander dies, the game isn't over; they just get kicked back to the CV. (Conversely, if the CV dies, the game is still over... a field commander is just an 'eyes and ears' for the comm, while their main control base is still in the CV). The comm could also suicide back to the CV with a button press. Perhaps, if using the comm point option, field commanders would cost comm points to spawn. With this, a comm could also perform essential tasks (building things all over the map, say) without risking the CV.
Holy crap, it's gonna take me a better part of the week to read through! See you on Thursday with comments! :p
That is one big essay you wrote :p Comments: I don't think the com has little to do; most games when I com I have plenty to do; but I think this is more due to my comming style (I once parked the CV in the enemy VF) But the idea of some commander powers similar to the squad ones have been discussed alot before; and it seems most people like them; hell don megel even has or had "Implement Commander flags" which are basicly squad auoras but induced by the commander. Also the idea of a jeep with a supply crate being droped into the field by the commander also have been said. So I got no problem with things like that implemented, and as for the system required to use those; just use the squad one, the commander already recivies ranks for "Commander operations" just throw that into a pool of points that the com can use to do direct assistance... As for the field commander; that could be interesting; but then the ninja rate could go up; the commander is supposed to focused on the field...
I have had great coms and poor coms. The great coms are the active ones that know a map and tell orders, which are then followed. This action creates wonderful battles. Poor or new coms lack the intensity that experienced knowing coms have which does make the com look boring and tedious to play. I have played com a few times and I learn a lot every time I play. I am an average com but no where near the level some people are able to get to. So Partly I think it had a lot to do with who is commanding. I like the idea of com points, especially something like onside artillery. A com can call artillery like the Grenadier power has on targets visible by his troops. Cannot just call artillery wherever blindly. Another idea that has been brought up is the advancement of soldier tech. Maybe these points mentioned earlier through com n squad orders could be used by infantry to do limited research in soldier tech, like better armor. Or a com could place bunkers for soldiers with these points. (act as fortified spawn points, with ammo and health crates, able to house 5 soldiers) Of course an engy would still have to build it. I do agree though that coms need some direct impact on the field other than placing structures, giving orders, and research.
Wow i like that idea very much. NO... i absolutley love it. What about give the comm figure on the battlefield a colorfull overdressed general uniform, like a mix between 1950 and 1900 , a nice pistol and glue a flag on his back so everyone can see him. Give him some moral-radius bonus for troops sourrounding him like +health +stamina and +speed. If the enemy team can take him out it should hurt the team but not destroy it. EDIT: OH and and a calculator so he can choose research Yes many comms wouldnt like it but its an option a comm mustn go into battle
I had suggested the comm points suggestion before, where the comm is then able to use these points on his teammates in some way, I believe this was shot down though. I still think it's a good idea, give the commander points, like when he drops buildings that get built, or when he gives attack orders that get killed, then let him spend these points on his team, theres loads of possibilities for commander powers. By being able to spend points as a commander, you let the commander be more involved, powers that give him some micro capabilities. The points also promote better teamwork.
Comm arty is a no go for me. No god like comm powers. I think a comm should have abilities that encourage winning or give the team a bonus but no powers that could win the game in a direct way. Just think of comm arty + sudden death
Comming in BF2 is easier than empires, all you have to do is shoot arty at the red blips on the map, and drop supply crates on the heads of your infantry. It's more tacked on the side than empires, empires needs a comm to facilitate the RTS side, while BF just uses it to launch arty strikes.
But but...that annoying scout sitting behind your VF....BUTTTTT Maybe have comm powers deactivated during sudden death?
I agree that it is not fun to comm and I havent been comm since early 1.071. I often considered what would make comm more fun. And I can imagene a lot of cool stuff. But whatever power/skill you give him there is a good chance that it will be incorporated in dominant strategies used often and just add more presure on comm/need for experience as it becomes more complex to learn. Also it gives the mass yet another possible way to blame comm for failing on a map. OMGWTF WHY DIDNT YOU USE THIS AND THAT THEN AND THERE FING MORON! and so on. just pointing it out..... dont really have any idea for alternatives that can make it more fun and less stressing.
could someone please tell me how commander launching a very slow nuke from the cv (supreme comm style) every 3 minutes or so is a bad thing?
Enemy team has one rax comm does the boomtank missle thingy and tada lame win. Hmmm maybee if you can kill the nuke on its way? But i prefer that from Aquillion: EDIT: Oh, I had one other idea, and this one's a bit more original. Instead of all the above, why not let the comm join the battle? It's simple enough; by clicking a 'spawn field commander' button, the comm can spawn as a soldier at any of their spawn points, while keeping control over the CV. As a field commander, the comm can still switch between comm and field view by hitting a key; they just move around as a soldier, and get a better view of what they're doing. If their field commander dies, the game isn't over; they just get kicked back to the CV. (Conversely, if the CV dies, the game is still over... a field commander is just an 'eyes and ears' for the comm, while their main control base is still in the CV). The comm could also suicide back to the CV with a button press. Perhaps, if using the comm point option, field commanders would cost comm points to spawn. With this, a comm could also perform essential tasks (building things all over the map, say) without risking the CV. and goddamit i would do the concept art for the "field comm person", that means i would force my lazy ass to draw stuff for that and this means a lot.
i dont like squad arty to but its implemented... and i have to live with it Do you mean a missle that flys in a line or an arc? in line means you have to be close to the target, same as squadleader a missle that flys in an arc is different, you can shoot down everything form a secure distance. (behind cover, wall etc) btw: am i the only one that thinks aquillions idea (that one under edit) is AWESOME ?
That's true... but I don't think there's anything we can do to make the comm's job less stressful. I do think, though, that if we look at squad powers... people often just forget to use them, and people rarely care (unless it's a really obvious case like everyone dead and no tickets and your engie leader forgets to squad revive). I suspect that people will tend to like a comm who uses their comm powers at all. Having your comm comm-revive you or heal you or drop supplies or give you a bonus or whatever it is tends to make you feel better about them, even if they suck otherwise and aren't using it 100% optimally. Right now it just isn't obvious all the things a comm does to help a team... so if a comm does even one thing wrong, everyone jumps on it. If they were doing big flashy obvious things to help, I think people would be much less likely to yell at them for small mistakes. I also think comm powers will be more intuitive than the things comms can do to help their team right now. At the moment, the big things comms can do to help their team (after the basic stuff) is odd, unintitive tricks like rushing early on to grab a res node, and/or pushing teammates in front of the CV. By comparison, dropping arty or healing or whatever in the appropriate places is pretty straightforward to do. ...and, of course, the "field commander" option would be fairly straightforward. You'd risk being ninjaed by taking your eye off the CV, but everyone knows how to play a FPS, and it would make it much easier for the comm to see what's needed in specific areas. Maybe I should make a seperate thread for it, since I think it's a good idea, but it seems to be getting overwhelmed by the other one?
Comm is alright, I just hate the bugs. Fix all the Comm bugs (general unresponsiveness, weird initial spawn,hitboxes of the build window options etc.) and comming will be much funner.
I agree with most of what you said Aquillion. Seems like a lot of what you said are great ideas. Comm being able to spend his earned points on team - helping abilities would be great, and you suggested a number of good ones. I think that the whole field commander thing is unnecessary though - I can't really see that happening / being too useful.
I got used to e, F2, click on map already BTW Client crashes sometimes while commanding (I sent dumps to Krenzo already). This is good. The rest of the thread is pure cr*p. Commander vehicle offensive abilities: the CV will be destroyed in combat more frequently. So... no. Commander revive: Spawning in rax in main base - 1 ticket. Loading ammo - took some time. Killing enemy sniper/gren hidden on a mountain nearby Your base 6 times, because he always gets revived by his comm - priceless. Getting stickied by the guy You just runned over, but he was commrevived - priceless. Comm arty: apc with regen and medium chain gun - 360 res safe wall to hide apc - 500 res watching it blown by enemy commarty as soon as You parked it - priceless. Comm has a radar of incredible range, everyone can spot for him, he can see by mini-radars. Also if anyone hides behind anything, my soldiers call me and I blow it from the other side. No safe places from me anymore. Barerly anyone cares about squad auras, so why would anyone care about the comm aura? We need totally original ideas, like the one with drawing on the map. I will think of some.
