Let Engineers place Refineries independently.

That's great, I agree. The team should benefit by having a guy in the CV in com mode all the time. Inversely, that same team should be disadvantaged be having the CV empty.

There are different ways to achieve this effect. There are more ways than just forcing the com to monotonously trigger research or drop a ref.

We need to concentrate on finding those other ways that can achieve this effect. Perhaps we could make a thread to brainstorm about such things?

 

You're creating a problem where there isn't one.

 

At the very least engineers should be able to place request markers for buildings, for buildings whose orientation is important (almost all of them), engineers should be able to request it as well.

Commanders should then be able to look at a list, sort by building type, time requested, maybe even by player for anti-griefing, then just click "place building" when the desired marker is selected.

If they want to control the orientation themselves, they would be able to do so by clicking near the marker to select it, drag the mouse to orient it and then release the mouse to drop the building. The ability to filter out players to prevent griefing by other players would also be nice.

Double clicking on markers in the list would instantly move you there, you could maybe also move to the player that placed the marker by double clicking on him in the list.

As for why: not everybody is a 5 year vet with OCD and mic occasional rage that knows the layout of every brush and displacement in every map, including displacement normals (this does matter).

 

i think this is a very good compromise, sort of like a request list that the commander has to approve or deny on

i would change the double clicking part to just being 3 buttons, accept, deny and goto just for learning ramp decreasment

 

There definitely is a problem. We see it every time a "Let engineers drop buildings" thread is created.


What we want: To directly benefit a team when their com is in the CV in com mode and the penalize a team when the CV is not in com mode or empty.

How we get it: Triggering research, dropping buildings, etc.


The Problem: Not all the gameplay mechanics in the How we get it list are desirable.

The Solution: Replace the undesirable mechanics with more desirable mechanics.


Every time one of these threads is created, all you have to say is "I want to keep the com busy, we can't remove a com responsibility". That instantly kills the thread because nobody ever wants to think a little bigger in order to solve the entire problem.

 

usually AM busy

anyway

i agree, and i find it only makes the point bigger that the dropping of refineries is too mundane to not give the engies some kind of power over it and take away some decision power on the commanders part

also

on the cv part, it would solve a lot of problems if you gave the cv a basic refinery income when someone is inside of it


basically like a backup res flow, would even take away some of the slippery slope problems, but i would make the total res flow a bit lower then though

something like total resflow 4/5th, and commander gets a basic res flow of a 2* refinery as long as someone is inside/not driving with it (to go against boom tanking)

 

I think Trickster has a problem with the possibility of a passive commander. It's agreed that passive commanding loses games, but he wants to ensure an active commander, not just suggest it.

That said, engineers will never drop refs as long as commanders have a dearth of direct responsibilities. The real solution is to add appropriate responsibilities for the commander. Only then can you remove the lame ones (ref dropping, etc.).

 

I've commanded some intense games where at times I'm juggling a bunch of things and even though I'm focused it can take me 10-20 seconds to get around to placing a refinery. On the other hand, there are slow games with commanders that are only doing the minimum required and it can take minutes to forever for them to place a refinery. This doesn't give the commander more things to do. If you want commanders to be more active, then give them more things that they can do, not more things that they have to do. It's the difference between marking off a checklist while grocery shopping because it's the boring list your mom gave you, and actually being able to cook and deciding what to make, what different ingredients you want, which brand of pasta sauce or maybe you'll make your own sauce, etc. I don't want you to give me a bigger checklist. I want to decide what's for dinner myself, each and every night.

 

I think we are both interpreting "active/passive" commanding differently.

I am interpreting an active commanders as a com who is active in the strategy process, kind of a micro com. A passive commander just sits there keeping the research going and dropping buildings. A passive com might have time to drive the CV around and generally fuck around because he's not engaged in the game.

I believe your interpretation is that an active commander is a boomtanker who is actively using the CV to help the team. and a passive commander sit in main comming.

So we just miscommunicated, am I right?

I couldn't have said that better if I wanted. Coms simply don't have enough important things to do. Aside from research and building placement, coms control very little.

I understand that Trickster wants to have busy coms. He doesn't want to allow engineers to place refs because that would reduce the amount of stuff a com can control.

So, if we ever want engies to place refs, step 1 is to make the busier in a meaningful way (no monotonous button pushing). Step 2 is to let engies place refs.

 

You really like your buttons, eh? .)

 

My commanding style generally revolves around constant, relentless attacking. I know the value of distraction and chaos, and I work around the distribution of the other players, as well as diverting their commander's attention. One APC rushing an enemy main can cause up to 5 killspawns, meaning they lose 4 more people than you at their front lines. I use strategies like this constantly. And this includes the commander without a doubt. I've had a single LT harassing the enemy commander to try and keep him away from doing stuff he should be, and that includes placing refineries when my team is pushing up to them. This is more from the standpoint of the enemy getting a bit chunk of cover if they get that refinery, rather than the extra resources, but my point stands. I want more strategy, not less, and this suggestion results in less, there's no 2 ways about it.

 

That's awesome. I never thought about it that way.

 

This would barely change strategy. The way it is now is equivalent to making the commander click on a flag before your team can capture it. How exactly would my suggestion result in less strategy?

 

The primary problem

The primary problem has nothing to do with the commander. The primary problem is that players are discouraged from building refineries. This problem is caused by the current gameplay mechanic of having the commander place the refineries. Players don't want to build refineries because they have to ask the commander to place it for them. There is no reason the refinery needs to be placed - the mapper has already done this!

The solution is to replace the resource nodes with engineer buildables (the refinery model). This could be done without changing any of the existing maps. The entity would be changed in the Empires code. Engineers should not be placing refineries - again, the mapper has already done this.

 

Flasche speaks the truth. When we take Trickster's com distraction requirement as a given, this suggestion simply cannot work.

So, I think if we add other engaging mechanics that could also be used to fill the distraction requirement, we might be able to get engy-buildable refs in the future. I made a thread to come up with more things for a com to do.