I figured out how vehicle physics works

For this to work, you need to make the turret aiming independent of the driving. Otherwise, you get the current situation where its hard to hit anything from the open hatch of a tank.

 

In regards to separate gunner/driver, see Red Orchestra for how that works out. Most of the time you end up with some1 driving their tank to a spot, then switch to gunner and try to snipe the enemy across the field using their stationary position. Blegh. Personally it'd be really interesting and help balance tanks, but a step away from the arcadey feel of Empires. Sorry, the inertia is against you. First they need to limit turret rotation speed.



In regards to driving requiring skill, I totally agree. However, there are certain unrealistic things that occur that really mess with stuff. For example, accelerating while turning does crazy weird things (even at low speeds). I understand it's supposed to be sorta like spinning out, but good gods is it annoying and there is no feed back to say "oh, btw, you're spinning out. Don't do that if you want to actually hold the turn." People just assume it's crappy vehicle physics. Also, flipping tanks.... yay physics!

Hopefully with these changes we can have horsepower for climbing hills without going ungodly fast on level ground. Maybe we can actually have mass in our tanks! Wow! Light tanks not being flipped by ramming a jeep into them because it's a frickin' TANK! That would be really, really cool.

 

I was just thinking. I can make the vehicles behave almost however I want, and I have some test versions for all of them, but this this topic leads me to believe that many people want completely different things from the vehicles.

My original goal was the attempt to make them all drive differently with a variety of different engines. Then people seemed to want them to be easier to control, in testing.

My second goal was to make them spin-out less easily, and I did that, but they people claimed they wanted it to steer better.


I am at an impasse here, so I will ask what people want.

I WILL leave vehicles such that the engines have a wide variety of effects. I can make vehicles able to steer well as the risk of people being able to wipe out(the capacity to wipe out means you can do more with the steering). I can make vehicles hard to wipe out, but hard to steer. I can give vehicles a wide variety of driving styles at the cost of all of these at different times. I can probably manage both turning ability and lack of spin-out if people accept that the vehicle cannot climb hills.

I just can't make a vehicle do everything, what do people want?

 

Gran turismo is like how cars should handle. If you want it to handle badly, make it like a honda civic or something, not a fucking whale. WHALES ARE NOT MEANT FOR THE SURFACE WORLD.

So, priorities. USEABLILITY. It MUST be able to go up hills. It MUST be able to turn in a way that is reasonable for empires maps, which is really quite tight. This DOES NOT mean that it has to be really simple, if to get the best turn you have to break into it or something that's fine, adds a bit of skill. Vehicles must be sensible to each other relating to speed, NOT MARINE MAMMAL LIKENESS, jeeps go fast, heavies go slow. That doesn't mean heavies should be unable to turn and move at the same time. THAT IS JUST SILLY.

After that, just add whatever is kool without breaking the previous.

 

It's actually fairly easy if your driver doesn't move his turret and is on flat ground. As a gunner, you'd be the one moving the turret, so that problem is solved. The only other issue is flat ground, but it screws up aiming even with one person, you're just less likely to be paying attention to it if you don't have to drive.

Oh, and there's that issue of the driver stopping, starting, and turning at random. That can be solved with training. "Stop dodging you damn dirty ape!"

 

And yet, they try regardless... Pity... it feels sooo... Lamarckian...

Any ways, I think you should make all the engines have distinct variations. So some are hard to drive, others easier, and others inbetween

 

IIRC, modern tanks use turrets aligned with gyroscopes to keep the turret facing in the correct direction, even if the tank's body does a 180° turn. If we did this with tank turrets and machine guns, it could make aiming easier.

 

It's just a matter of properly done model in 2.25. Some of the models have gunner's seat placed away from the center of turret so it would look silly. Code support is there, you can change the scripts to see.

In 2.25 aiming as a gunner attached to turret is quite hard but not as damn hard as in 2.24 (and earlier).

We don't plan to go back to earlier turret rotation (much slower). We're not making a tank simulator.

 

Considering the most fun I have in empires is 3 phase LTs I'd say fun and easy are pretty much BFFs.

The fun part is that I go fast and shoot tanks at high speed, the easy part is that I don't spin out all the time doing that.

This isn't GTA, I don't have an accelerator, I have a W key and a handbrake, the function of the handbrake is to make the vehicle go out of control, and the vehicles have a strange habit of handling like they're made of laminated ice cubes.

The difficult bit is being able to predict the cannon shots so that I hit things, which is hard enough when stationary let alone when moving and your crosshair is jerking all over the place and the enemy tank is moving too so you have to take that into account.

Tank fights feel like slap fighting a six year old, flailing madly and hopefully hitting something.

 

Back on topic (i.e. move the driver/gunner detachment to another thread)

First and foremost, make sure that the "variety of driving styles" are easily tracked by some metric. Or, perhaps a mixture of metrics. For example, most racing games tell you how easy it is to control using the metrics of weight, horsepower, and turning radius. A lot of weight means it will tend to slide more, and horsepower is raw acceleration. Too much horsepower for too little weight, you get easy spin-outs on tight turns. Assuming for each chassis that weight and turning radius stay relatively the same, a horsepower metric will help show acceleration. Then, imply that more acceleration will mean harder to control turns. Also, don't forget top-speed since if you have slow accel but get up to 200mph, a turn will obviously cause you to spin out.


Perhaps we can also color the speedometer a different color if they will spin-out if they try to turn at that speed.


We also need to add in some way to indicate spin-outs. A screeching sound or something that lets them know it isn't crappy vehicle code. This will also help people realize high speeds = spin outs in this game and that this isn't an arcade racer with perfect adhesion to the road, thus lessening the "ZOMG JEEPS SUK THEY CAN'T TURN" impulsive response.

I agree that useability is the key priority. Everything must be able to go up a distinct gradient of hill, even from a standstill. Basic turns must be performable without being forced into a spin-out or going too slow. The relative values of "too slow" are an exercise for the user.

It must also be relatively "realistic". What I mean is that heavy tanks, while they may need more horsepower for their weight, shouldn't outpace lighter tanks on level ground. If we can properly incorporate weights so that jeeps don't flip heavies, that would be welcome as well.



Frankly I would lean more towards leaving some capacity to spin-out since some people want to try and drift with the proper control. However, for lower horsepower engines, maybe they are easier to turn.


Another interesting variant would be for higher horsepower engines to have a larger turning radius, thus making it equally easy to spin out on all engines. Probably not a great idea though.

 

The effect of horsepower really depends upon the circumstances of the vehicle.

If the vehicle uses low counter-torque style factors and has back-shifted weight, higher horsepower will make it act much more responsively and generally turn better(faster). If the vehicle has a high center of gravity, it will mean that the vehicle is more likely to spin out at lower speeds during changes in accelerating. At higher levels it will generally become better at climbing mild hills from a stand-still and at low speed. If it has a forward-based center of gravity, the factors will cause an increased trend toward total-spin out, as opposed to drift.

If a vehicle uses medium-high counter-torque factors when center of gravity is towards the back. Then horsepower will lead to it being better at climbing extremely steep hills over a short term. Higher horsepower will lead to stability when accelerating but a huge increase in 'reverse fishtailing' in which turning rates decrease because of insufficient forward-force.

Forward center of mass and counter-torque factors will cause an increased trend towards power-sliding as horsepower increases, and a general increase in control. Additionally, there will be an overall tendency towards complete spinouts once acceleration has stopped during a turn at low speeds.

In summary:

Center of Mass
Forward, countertorque Increases control, but not speed much. Increases spinouts at low speeds and power sliding.

Backward, countertorque. Decreases turning ability, does not affect speed much. Increases ability to go up steep hills. Increases tendency to flip backwards.

Forward, normal: Increases turning power and greatly increases wipe-out tendency. Increases speed and ability to climb hills.

Backward, normal: Improves turning and speed with little affect on wipe-out tendency. Greatly improves ability to go up hills.


Wheel Torque: Allows for conditional modifications of when torque applies during vehicle movement

Wheel Mass: Allows for more specific altering of point of mass of the vehicle.

Dampening:

 

ugh.... So, in summary, it's complicated and we can't really make it into a single metric. Joy.


Can we make the vehicle Customization GUI show lots and lots of shiny specs as we pick out engines and pray people figure them out?

 

Dude, no offense, that is what a real tank fight FEELS like. if you expect bumps and changes in slope and the maneuvering of the enmy vehicle to not work to frustrate you thoroughly in trying to aim and shoot at full speed with 3-phase while you try to maneuver yourself.... . Thats why tanks usually don't turn when shooting in real life. That is why tanks usually don't accelerate while shooting- again like in real life. That is why tanks usually stop when on unstable /non-completely flat terrain, like most of empires. however good mappers put in hills and small dips and slopes etc that make going at high speed in a tank battle very hard - again, like in real life.

Thank you, for telling me exactly *why* easy does NOT correspond with fun. 3 phase spins you out when you turn, 3 phase can't turn very well. However, if you master the hand brake (which works just fine and predictably btw), you can turn in any direction damn fast while keeping a majority of your speed with 3 phase. Guess what it takes to figure out how? Spend 5 minutes alone in a server by yourself testing it out, getting used to it , learning the skill it takes to handle the handbrake properly. I have no problem doing hard turns, U-turns, and the like both with standard and 3-phase engines. It is EASY if you learn how to control the vehicle, and that is probably why you have fun with 3phase. Good, me too. However, this comes *with* the skill, not independent of it, and that is the point. Standard engines can make up for their inability to go super fast by using the handbrake to make sharp turns and dodge shots or lose an enemy. That is *skill*, and if you have the skill that is *fun*. Also, you do have an option to accelerate slwoer to not spin out, and that is tapping W instead of holding it down.

Actually, that is realistic. unlike in racing games with totally awesome sports cars, accelerating constantly through a turn will end up in a few seconds with a spin out, a loss of control. that is *accurate*, and of course annoying. This isn't at low speeds either, with a engine with fast acceleration, turning on the acceleration while starting to turn, even from standing still, will soon cause enough torque to spin you out, this is implemented in the source physics engine as well.

It sucks, but at lower speeds you can turn at sharper angles- also true in real life. therefore if you start a turn in low speed, now turning sharply, but then put the pedal to the floor (not tapping W repeatedly but instead holding it down), suddenly you are in a sharper turn, your acceleration is greatly increasing the torque felt, and while in real life your wheels might only slip a little (and gradually more as you speed up), in source once you start slipping you are in a spin out. Limitations of the physics engine, but the physics engine is working properly here, and the empires tanks are emulating it properly.




----------------------------------

Ok enough bitching about that. I like the idea that jeeps should be a bit faster, heavy tanks should be a bit slower, etc. Those changes sound really good actually. Hills need to be climbable, but I like the idea of ADV Coolant and other slower engines getting really slow on a hill, including standard. This is fine, this is the appeal of gas turbine, that is it's strength. I like the engine balance in game currently, every engine sort of has its purpose, mostengines are quite satisfyingly fast.

 

Point taken. I guess the real problem is 1) we expect more arcadey-ness and 2) the spinout mechanic isn't well shown. If people knew they were spinning out (screeching sounds or red color on the speedometer or something) we would mitigate this effect.


I personally like to err on realism when possible, but several other ideas have been shouted down by the grand call of "FUCK REALISM," so.... yeah.

 

I don't really care about realism too much, gameplay is important. However the vehicles are difficult to control unlike a sports vehicle. So you can spin out, it is predictable, and you can use it to your advantage. The predictability makes it now not a bug so much as it is a factor of skill, and this particular trait is real, at least for tanks not running on treads (which I do not believe the source engine is capable of modeling). As RoboTek has clearly outlined, there are numerous possibilities which effect the control of the vehicle.

My problem with greatly modifying the vehicle physics is thus: The vehicles are fast enough and accelerate enough as it is. Anymore and the vehicle gren balance would be further skewed, as well as tank v tank combat becoming more like the 6yo slapping contest it has been likened to. Most people have issues with
1. Hill Climbing
2. Turning

Hill climbing isn't an issue I think, any vehicle can climb any of the hills *meant to be climbed* in empires, and faster vehicles (3 phase / jeep turbo) can climb higher, but generally from the point of gameplay the ability to climb hills increases the exploitability of any given map. In addition, as I mentioned before, this is the appeal of gas turbine, and adds that strategy in for the commander in a given map with a lot of hills- Don't get AC, and GT would be useful.

Turning is the biggest gripe here, blah blah blah I can't help spinning out because I wish to be a little girl -_-. Turning is doable, and the ability to spin out, as well as the handbrake ability, actually turn out to be useful. No, we don't have a small circle of tanks following tanks making fantastical turns to avoid shots just by virtue of WASD. No´, if you want to make fantastical turns you have to build some speed (can't do it constantly), and sacrifice it for a handbrake turn. Hence where the SKILL comes in. And yea, during the handbrake it handles quite like a brick, but you can do some really fancy things with the brick -_-.



So what can we do?

Adding in skreeching... if that is doable sure, why not . However I respect the current vehicle balance we have. I see the pros and cons well balanced between the engine types. For every one of the gripes in this thread about standard engines, these gripes can be fixed with one engine research or another.

Skreeching could probably be added in for holding W and A / D at the same time, indicating that you may spin yourself out if you continue. And I really like this idea, I think it should be implemented.

Now making jeeps slightly faster and heavier tanks slightly slower would be a realistic idea as well: You shouldn't be able to catch a jeep with a heavy using the same engine, with APCS and light Tanks being only slightly slower than a jeep. Likewise, heavies and artys shouldn't be able to pull out of battle / chase smaller vehicles with the same engine. This makes a lot of sense to be implemented, but it should be noted that between vehicles of similar weight class (I.E. jeeps vs APCs / LTs / AFVs) the difference should be slight, enough for jeeps to escape slowly but not enough that jeeps can make ridiculous hitz and runz through enemy lines. Of course these light vehicle classes should have a noticable advantage over a heavy tank me thinks .

 

The spin out locks out your 'steering wheel', but doesn't necessarily cause a loss of traction or control. With some vehicles, this is just odd. With the CV it's just barely noticeable since it always spins very tightly because of its wide back and forward center of gravity. If you mix CV and scout speed bug, you get a very badly balanced and oversized sports car, which is fun in its own bizarre way. Even the Light Tank is fairly forgiveable; it's a glorified ATV with bad proportions, that it drives at all is a miracle.

...And then we get to the Brenodi Medium Tank. It's a tank. It's got treads. It looks well balanced. It's fairly long for its width. Add 3-phase and it spins like a top. Whuh?

 

Oh, also of note.

I have been able to make it so going into a spin out no longer locks your steering wheel, but unfortunately you wills till have usually spun a large amount in a short time and the effect isn't a significantly greater amount of control because you always turn slower than you can spin out.

Anyway, I am off for a week. If people have a list of how they would want each tank to drive I will do my best to make it happen, at least the general idea.

 

jeeps: like driving a quad

apc: like driving a fast pickup truck
light/afv: like driving a faster pickup truck, smooth driving plz
medium: like a tank lol
heavy: bulldozer tank

 

Text Twalll Texxxtt Wallls

 

Whatever happened to the code he said he would post?