I'm posting this here so that I can get feedback from the 1.08 testers who I trust will offer good feedback without spamming or anything: How feasible is a global banlist - for those of you familiar with the punkbuster games, something like AAServerAdmins or AON Bans: Someone in game sees a griefer, screenshots, condumps and demos (though most don't do that...) and then goes to the website for a global ban list and posts all of this - if I would host it I would enable the hosting of the condump.txt file and screenshots on the forum itself, and allow for a demo file to be uploaded via an HTML form. (I more streamlined system would be to have an HTML form to handle it all, sort of like CW's webapp system - it is easy enough to make). Once the report is made, a mod/admin would look over the evidence, and either decide that there is no evidence (not ban), that it looks like something funny was going on, but insufficient evidence (add to a watch list) or there was sufficient evidence (add to ban list) - in the latter two cases, the screenshots and whatever else would be saved along with all other info for an appeal that would be allowed later on...maybe only allow one appeal. Now, that system is easy to code up, afaik. For the distribution of the ban list, I do not know as much - it is easy to do with punkbuster. Here's a brief convo I had with CB who is more knowledgeable than I: What are everyone's thoughts on this - would it be something that would do well? It would alleviate all of the calls to hard code ban people, and offload all of that traffic onto a specific group of people willing to handle the upkeep of a banlist.
there would be more playing if there wern't griefers and hackers. you're saying "i had this really fun 10 v 10 match, but it would have been a lot lot better if it was 11 v 11 with a griefer on each team. that would have made the game epic." I agree with this and i'll help any way i can. i'll be an admin if you want
who decides these bans- cyber(t)kun of all people should see the value in picking especially judicious and cool-headed admins when it comes to the people who hand out the bans. Furthermore, because the punishment is so severe, (permaban, only?) the requirements for a global ban would probably have to be very clearly laid out for all to see, and somewhat limited (like... 'no recruiting' is a bad requirement imo). So, transparency, is what I'm saying. Umm... what about, like, a vote, or something, from a pool of candidates, and your admin status is revoked after an alloted time? Basically instituting democratic processes in order to keep one person's ego from becoming too bloated with power.... idk. I have no experience with this sort of thing. But I like the idea, I just question how it can be implemented without being abused. I just woke up; I'm tired..... this post may befuddle you.
If this ever sees the light of day; you better make sure that there are no loopholes; and to get onto the global ban list; you will have to commit something major like the guys back then making griefing videos; as for the rest of them, simple "Nigger Nigger Nigger" spam on chat; shouldn't get them a ban from all of the servers, as an example diffrent admins will have diffrent tolerence levels; and then again, the admins themselves are also human... I have mixed feelings about this, I wouldn't want Empires admins to become lazy and become dependant on the ban list without questioning it...
what shinzon said- the global banlist should only come into play if a server ban is insufficient, and to do that takes effort and strong evidence. UNLESS- unless the global thing is, like, temporary, somehow, and functions like any other server ban thingy, where maybe it only applies for a day or so. Can you do that? idk. But if it's permanent then the need for good admins and strong evidence and harsh requirements to get on it is paramount.
I disagree with a democratic process - the last thing I would want to see is a popularity contest. I however WOULD see finding a base set of admins that the community approves of and having those base admins vote as being a good setup. Perhaps also require more than one admin to act on a ban - require a minimum of say, 3 admins to act on the ban application, and disallow an admin to act on a ban that related to one of his clanmates. Perhaps require the base admins to be reviewed every few months, make sure they are maintaining their cool and being subjective. Also, to not be hostile to complaints from members about admins being prejudiced - to maintain a good trustworthy image, the global banlist would need to ensure it is totally impartial and can be trusted. Regarding the bans that would apply - no recruiting would be something that specific server would deal with. A global banlist has no domain over such server rules. For example, if a server rule was "No nukes", it is up to that server's admins to enforce that rule, the global banlist would have nothing to do with that rule. Yes, I know regarding no loopholes. I've not laid out the requirements for a ban or anything - I am thinking about this more in a way of "is it feasible" at the moment, with not as much thought going to the specifics at this time. Regarding racist spam, perhaps allow bans for racism, but make them a separate list - where you can choose to accept the bans doled out for racist comments, but they are not fed to your server by default. Nor would I want the banlist to become the only thing there - I feel it would not get THAT much use, maybe one ban a week, but who knows. Either way, I feel that it would be beneficial, as right now, the only way to get a global ban is to get it hard coded, and then wait for a patch with the ban. This would offer an immediate b an for someone shown to be a greifer or otherwise detractor from gameplay. Temp bans COULD be set up I imagine - for example lesser offenses - a one time report of someone being racist incurring a 1 week ban, a second report incurring a 1 month ban - etc. I wholly agree, and if this idea does take off, I hope that you will still be interested in helping.
It'd be easy enough I think, after looking over the link you sent regarding hooks and all, to do a plugin that would manage its own banlist, or use MySQL and not save any ban data locally - and query the banlist or a DB by sending in their steamID and check if they have a ban. If they do have a ban, display a popup stating they have been entered into the global banlist, why they are in there and where to appeal it. An optional thing that could be added later is to also use that same plugin to track where people are. That way, when someone reports a steamID griefing, you can check the tracker that would log when each player was on what server, and if they were on that server, then continue. If a steam ID is being reported for griefing at a time when it was not on the server in question, then it is a "fraudulent" report.
I have made my mind up right now: A global ban list is not needed; you don't need to police the community yourself; it can do that by itself; there are already systems in place and admins on all servers which should be doing their job. A global ban list opens up alot more room for potential abuse, and unfair judgement. A global ban list already does what a relativley admined server does, this seems to be as a reaction to the poorly admined servers; to sort of patch a hole. Patching things is never a solution, instead you have to go to its root, in this case poorly admined servers that are somehow managing to be popular, or if you want to be picky, Empires itself should be made more grief proof (As to how; that warrants its own thread). A guy can just be an asshole; but never do anything worth banning; then he does one insignificant thing and everybody jumps at him. You also might have overly self rightous bastards trying to ban every single person in existance. In short; I think a global ban list should not be implemented; it does nothing that a good admin wont to already, and as a prevention method it does the exact same thing as an admin. As for the nomination of "Nazi Admins" (Admins that will control the ban list) I don't care who is elected, giving that kind of a decision to that little people is never a good idea. If this ever sees the light of day I would perfer a more democratic system, or atleast the involvement of the dev's themselves as a global ban list is more or less the same thing as a hard coded ban. (You might argue otherwise, but then you will have "Pirate" servers being set up that do not use the ban list, alienating a group of players for whatever they have done.)
As you have many good points, I'll address each in turn: Regarding abuse, I think that using some form of a democratic system would really help a lot - I agree...however being fully democratic would not be wise, simply because it would become a popularity contest...which is just as bad I think, not? I had thought of allowing Krenzo direct say in the running of the system, and if he so wishes, the ability to ask for certain people to be appointed, and others vetoed. I agree that a well admined server could help this some, but at current, you have these forums not wanting anyone to post regarding bans unless the offender is a repeat offender or does it on the official server - at current you have no one place for an admin of say KM to go when he gets a griefer (and lets say he has a demo) to get the offender banned from Mittoes, CW, JPL, SF and other servers. Is it a stop gap to fixing emp to not allow griefers? Yes, it is - I agree. I'd prefer to see empires made so such that you wouldn't need to worry about some moron getting into the CV and taking it for a drink in a lake, or some moron flipping his own CV over...but those things at the moment see no easy fix. Is it due to poor admins, perhaps to some degree....but griefers banned from one server won't see a ban on another server right away. Furthermore, hard code bans are slow to respond - I don't know when the next patch is, and as such, don't know when hard code bans will take effect. I agree - but at what point can you draw the line to ban someone for behaviour? Racism? Sure - no doubts there. But for being an ass an insulting people? I think that is limited to single servers to deal with. Regarding jumping on people for griefing, then take a different enforcement method - one time offense is a few day ban. Number two offense is a longer ban, number 3 is permanent ban. As such, you could encourage those caught ruining games to play right; if they resist those corrections and continue to be stupid, just permaban then. Like I mentioned before, pure democracy (all players get to vote) won't work I feel - which is why I suggested a smaller group of people. I'm not suggesting a overly small group of people - I see the same concerns you see with corruption; like I also mentioned above, I feel allowing Krenzo some direct control over the system would be favorable. Not that I do not value your opinions Shinzon (I do - you're giving valuable feedback - and this is why I came here and posted about it before going public or putting any serious time into it), but I'd also like to see what Krenzo thinks regarding this. I've looked into what it would take to write a plugin to handle a banlist, and I'm willing and able to write one - I'm not proposing someone else handle the creation of this - if it is felt that a global banlist would contribute to the mod, I would go ahead and code the plugin (as it seems rather simple). If nothing else, I'm interested in coding a tracker plugin, to allow for stats to be tracked in some way globally.
Don't feel like I am just bashing at your Idea either :p I am just concerned of the way it might turn out, I have a mindset of trying to prepare for the worst possible outcome, and for me it seems like avoiding a global ban list took the upper hand and the most benifit at worst case in my mind... But judging from the way people are responding to this; I would say a global ban list is something that will be implemented none the less; and Evan msged me just now saying that Krenzo approved it, so lets focus on discussion on how it will work instead... 1) Is it a global track list that is forced on every server; or do the server operators get to decide if they want to use this? If it is forced then a few other sub question arise: i) If it is forced; is there a way to "disable" this with the use of other plugins? ii) if the list is by by-passed by a few servers, what do you do with theese "Pirate" servers? 2) How does a player get onto the ban list? Does it work in a similar fashion as is now with the official server? Where the concerned bring their pleas to a forum which is discussed by others as well and then the final decision is made by the elected moderators? 3) How are those moderators elected (Or are the current moderators get translated over?)? Judging by the fact that a similar format to that of the "Official Bans" is going to be used; are the canidates going to be elected by the dev's themselves; or is it going to be a community vote? or a mix of the two?
I think the plugin should be optional. I'll gladly head up Empires Admins. I think RampantAndroid is comfortable being the plugin dev.
Having an overall authority is not necessary. Any admin bans on a given server can be passed on to other admins and that player can then be put on a watch list on other servers. In the event that the person continues to commit acts or attitude on other servers then pretty soon this player will run out of servers. A Lot of times it is a one time act. One bad act is not enough to ban from all servers. Watch list published on each forum and names can be added. Just a thought.....
If you do make that plugin care to let me see the source code? I need some good and clean example of a server plugin..
A global ban list is indeed needed. What are we gonna do if myg0t decides to invade Empires? If we get a global ban list started, griefer clans can't do shit.
No Evan......I, for one, do not want to see some GRAND PUBAH sitting like Jabba The Hut dictating to the clans and forums on who is banned and who is not banned. I have enough faith that sensible people will do what is necessary to control the miscreants who infest the gaming servers for the sole purpolse of creating havoc and mischief. Sharing of information at the top level should be sufficient. Publication of the ban list on this forum should do the job. All bans should be graduated from one hour to permanent based upon the severity and number of offenses. Pretty soon the offenders will just go a away by themselves.......
