There is anything wrong with the turrets themselves. I just think some maps should not have level 3s. For example; they are restricted on district for a reason. No matter how much you nerf them, they will always be a big pain in the ass on small flag maps.
Actually i find lvl3 turrets way more annoying in for example canyon than in havoc. In havoc the height variation and foliage just requires a different way of playing, and this includes the ways to deal with turrets. The artillery alone does its job well, but you can actually use the terrain as cover to get close enough to turrets to take them out with nades or grenadier weapons.
I do think the turrets should have spread at distance, I'm not really a fan of idea of removing lvl 3 turrets on the map. I would rather add another arty or give the arty dual small arty cannon, than have any kind of restriction on the map.
I'm sorry Keef but the turrets make it fucking awful. It's just a slow grind of taking them down bit by bit. It stagnates the combat entirely. Arty isn't fun. Turrets aren't fun.
Then obviously not every match plays out the same. Last time this map was epic, and the lvl3's were only a problem as long as i kept playing like i do on other maps. Once i changed my behavior the map was awesome. It's the only map were you have this ww1 trench feel, were you have moments that you just rush and kill, and then there's moments were you crawl from low ditch to low ditch and you know if you stick your head out you'll get shot. If you remove the lvl3's, this map will become a pure rush fragfest like all other maps. At least for once this is actually a map that forces a different playstyle
I was a bit tempted to give the tanks HE so they would be more effective against the turrets and infantry due to its nerfed state at the moment, I'm just afraid that HE might become an infantry rape again in the future when I'm not around to get it fixed(like tropic vendetta was stuck at 700 starting res due to the 400 res barracks and it completely fucked the maps gameplay). Maybe you can weigh in on the future of HE scripts to help me decide trickster. Other than that I'm still more tempted to add another arty, it would prevent from only a noob having it all game and slowly dooming a team. And add a bit of dynamic to removing turrets if it gets to bad, keeping 1 arty out of the fight is much easier than 2.
HE won't be changing much, but it would be pretty brutal against infantry. Honestly, the turrets aren't the problem, so much as the fact they're hidden behind trees is. That's where the issue lies. It's the first time in Empires where I've had to take artillery feedback and just shoot at things on the minimap. It was really boring. If I could see what I was shooting at it wouldn't have been so bad, but I may as well have been playing battleships.
Well we could maybe bribe silk to plant a bunch of his nice pine trees in the map, I don't know how well it would handle that many of them or how aggressive the LOD for the models are. Orex are pretty efficient so I can get away with a rediculous ammount of them.
Not at the computer atm so cant check, but I believe I made three LODs for em. Lowest around 300 tris or so. Edit: Just for correctness sake: four lods, lowest at 200 tris.
Is the problem infantry placed turrets or map based turrets? In the case of infantry based turrets maybe try thinning the forested areas more so it's harder to conceal a turret.
But that's exactly what i always wanted to achieve with a new map, but never found a way to do it: create a map setting/layout that encourages people to use the things in empires currently underused. lmg's, prone, scout hide (scout in general), artillery, artillery feedback, ... We have all these weapons, skills and features in this game that rarely get used cause existing maps are all pretty open with a huge line of sight, which encourages just a few playstyles. You can either say the game features are unbalanced or at least that some are obsolete, or you can say that the maps are not varied and well designed enough to warrent the use of each of them. Imo untill each vehicle/weapon/skill/class gets used almost equally as much, either the game or the maps are not designed well. In this map at least, and for the first time, artillery is important, hide can be important, lmg's apparantly are as well
Arty feedback is great on certain maps, dunno what yall talkin about. Unless you've all memorised the angles and positions on slaughtered/canyon well enough to hit refineries without arty feedback, in which case you guys REALLY need to get out more. Also prone is an excellent tool, dunno what you're talkin about. LMG is just pointless though, that's a fault of the gun, not level design.
Ok just played it. 1) fission engines: no. it's impossible to fucking go anywhere you actually want to go in the NF meds, I haven't played with BE meds but I reckon it's similar. Gas turbine or something please god not fission it's like I'm fucking bobsledding 2) not enough variety. The entire map is the same the whole way through, makes it really boring, getting forward progress is meaningless because you're just fighting in the same area with slightly different displacements. 3) restrict level 2s and 3s. They ruin it. 4) fix the displacements around some of the capture points, there's a few points where instead of walking up to the point you start surfing to the side, I don't mind these inclines in less traversed sections of the map, but the cap points should be easy to get into from every side (and if you dont want them accessible from one side make it significantly steeper, I hate it when a hill looks climbable but I just slide like a retard Overall, kinda fun, the general gameplay works well but there's some issues, level 3s just ruin it. Certainly arty/tanks can be used to kill level 3s but even then it's virtually impossible to see the fucking things and the tanks handle like you're inside a pinball machine. Not to mention constant barrages of riflemen with stickies. Add some more varied cover, maybe some little bridges over the deeper ditches to give more mobility to infantry. Trees are cool but there's probably too many. I'd say it's enjoyable, and I'd like to play it with more players than I got to, but it does have some issues. It's nice to see walls aren't restricted though. We never get walls in conquest maps, so it's nice to see them (they might be broken like in urbanchaos, I havent played enough to tell, but if they're fairly balanced I'll be happy)
I dont have any issue with switching to gas turbine really. Also since mootant fixed the invincible unbuilt wall problem(only engys could destroy them) I doubt even urban chaos would have much of a problem with walls anymore. you can just kill them with nades and mortars now.
Its a pretty nice map for getting population up. I really enjoy playing it, on foot flags are close enough to guarantee plenty of encounters but there is also enough cover to do some flanking and surprise people. my favorite part is that tanks are really effective with a couple of rifle escorts to keep stickies away - and I love any time there is that interplay between tanks and infantry together. Because the map is small there is usually plenty of squad points for squad leaders to exploit. lvl3s are kind of a pain on the arse because it is beyond most people to spot them. But I think its alot of fun and scales pretty well.
Havoc discourages the typical Empires tactic of RUSH RUSH RUSH into enemies, you need a much more patient approach, like when driving a heavy in Planetside 2. Timing, cover and backup is what wins it for you, and breaking down the frontlines is quite the challenge without good grens. Still, there's more than enough spots to plop down with a defensive HMG covering a flag area, more than enough places to hide a camera, and it's very easy to ambush an enemy that went in over their head into your territory. All the being said, I very much enjoy the map and fully support Silk's post.
