[debate] Changing meds and heavies so NF is not ONLY missiles and BE cannons

so nf gets nuke meds?

 

so what, you mean to compair nukes to rails? nukes are good enough for both factions to get, rails are just wasted weight on NF ...

 

You guys, did you even read? Be gets nuke meds, nf gets rail meds.

Only problem is nukes, it's a research that completely nullifies turrets which means turrets are null at like the 16 minute mark now or something.

Actually on that idea there's more useful 3 slot mls then 3 slot cannons, this is more a buff to be then anything.

I like the idea though, but I would also like it if meds had 3 slot weapons in general, along with a bunch of other changes listed somewhere.

 

wait im supposed to read carefully?

yeah my bad, but it doesnt really matter except for that rails suck for NF - so the other way round its even worse.

also if you want 3slot weapons on meds, why have different slot sizes in the frist place? you just could have it weight based only.
atm its light 1slot, medium 2slot, heavy 3slot, nice and simple - from a players perspective at least.

but if you want variants of the 3slot weapons on meds, why not just add some new, a tad weaker, 2slot weapons?
and while you add new 2slot weapons, id like some 1slot weapon upgrades please. many thanks :D

 

Spike had some good one slot weapons, even proposed a way to get them in without making them something never gotten. Would really like to see them in.

I never liked the slot system and the tiered weapon system in general because it doesn't make much sense. At least when going from meds to heavies. Heavies have an extra weapon anyway, along with increased cooling to fire that extra weapon. So why do we make special weapons just for heavies? 3 slot weapons are heavier anyway, though not by a whole lot.

Slot system does have use though, like the giving the apc it's beefed up weapons. It's good for specializing chassis, that's the extent as far as I'm concerned though.

What I really want is this. https://forums.empiresmod.com/index.php?threads/rebalance-to-heavy-and-medium-tanks.19645/ In there I basically just ask instead of our bigger is better current tank balance we instead end up with meds and heavies being side grades, where people would want to and can do well with meds but heavies have their own purpose that makes them fun for others.

 

since you usually get weapons before chassis anyway, they could very well just be where their 2slot coutnerparts reside. it just feels odd for lights to never upgrade weaponry, but making 2slots available with mk2s has its own issues, 1slot versions could overcome that since you can adjust their values individually.

maybe it has not been taken far enough and there also should be more tier 3 weapons? atm its homing salvo, nukes, rails and plasma. the mls are good, the cns are soso (but i judge from outdated balance, ive only used nukes in this version)

there could be a different mechanic assuring that, so its no real argument pro slot sizes.

you had me at "heavies get less armor".

we do, dont we?

 

The way I suggested getting 1 slot weapons in was making it a passive research. Meaning when you open a tree, say bio, you'd get this one slot bio cannon he made. This works better then tying it to some existing thing like say bio ml or whatever because you get it much earlier and it guarantees variety in light tanks regardless of what the commander was getting in that tree. It should be noted the 1 slot stuff spike made weren't upgrades, they really were just alternative weapons for however you like to play a light tank. Considering the lights for choices it would still help tremendously.

Yeah you could have a different mechanic to separate weapons for a given chassis, but why make a new thing when the old thing works fine? Well for the most part, I had to really abuse the script system when I was working on that rehaul last year.

I'm still not for the idea of more 3 slot stuff, because it inherently dictates it's better then the 2 slot stuff. Again, why are we giving stronger weapons for tanks that can have 2 of said weapons? It would make more sense if the heavy tanks only had 1 of each weapon type but that's not the case here and something I wouldn't ever expect to change. It isn't like the 2 slot stuff is all that weak either...

 

yes you are right about that tier 3 stuff, i didnt really think that through and i really like the idea of putting tier 1 stuff close to the root.

also i kinda feel like research cost is missing in balancing considerations, a 2k research is something worth 1.5 heavies, its nothing spent lightly ... but thats a bit offtopic already.

 

I think this is a job for mk2 medium tanks. Keep the current (balanced?) generic mediums, and add a new chassis option with different weapons. Same model though, or perhaps different turret if absolutely necessary.

 

Why would anyone spend time delaying heavies? That's all a mk2 med will do. If you offered the med with different loadouts, like a med with more armor but no mg or ml slot or one with less armor but 3 slot stuff(not advocating any of that), then it would be a neat idea. If it's just the med with improved whatever it's going to have to come after med tank research instead of next to it which just delays heavies. After all it's not 3 slot weapons that make heavies super powerful, it's all the other things you get that make them so strong.

This thread reminds me of flasche talking about personal research. I think he meant more for people carry on their own research tree instead of the commander but I think it would be nice instead to have it run concurrently with commander research. Just instead of researching items to use you instead research improvements you'd like to have. Like say you want to go faster or a tank with more armor or weapons that carry more ammo. You could even have bigger research things like extra weapon slot or something, possibly even spending all your research time making something beyond a super light so you could face heavy tanks head on. You'd just have to have everything have different research times and possibly have some options take out of wages(maybe use wages to speed up research?), it would give another use to wages which can help do something with the massive amount of res that collects instead of it being solely on more tanks. There's a lot you could do with it, and if scope allowed you could extend it to other things like infantry research. I just know this would be a massive undertaking but I do think it would be a nice addition.

 

hehe i actually meant it the exact other way round. players chose the items they want, comm researches more general upgrades. so you see every weapon every round* as players can build the tanks exactly the way they want - want plasma? no problem, research it. think of all the hard counters and synergies possible if there wouldnt be same weapon against same armor over the course of a round. the depth we miss out on is incredible ...

*or almost, im sure therell still be slightly op weapons or at least the believe that one is

 

Mmm, as a commander I don't trust people to make smart choices with researching their own items. I fully expect someone to get something like regen and coolant on slaughtered which is about the worst decision you can make. Or other situations, like someone getting arty on a map like duststorm. If it's just passive upgrades they can't shoot themselves in the foot. There's also the issue of keeping research going, it's going to be a sad situation when only 3 of your guys kept on top of it and have heavies vs the other team all being in heavies. Commanding new players is hard enough without having to also remind them to research things. I guess in this situation queuing research would help it, but I still feel like people will forget to set it to next item after armor is done.

I mean it does sound nice, at first I honestly thought "yeah I would like that", but too many bad memories of bad teams just tells me it won't end well.

 

as regen and coolant could be a lot more pronounced those items could be useful on slaughtered (even in a combination maybe?) if play your cards right. its not all tanks regen, its just one - or even a handful, noone can foretell tell what a good mix would look like with hypotetic hard counters, but i assume in general a mix should work best in such enviroment.

my suggestion always was both together. individual picks and actual counters, the idea originated the from the how hard should counters be in terms of empires debate.
this is the only way i see hard counters not be a random coin flip by comms and bad from FPS perspective.

edit:
but then there are also way less players than back then. idk if its really applicable well with low player counts where you might even end up with less tanks than counters and then it would be down to counters and not skill and strategizing and thats shit coin tossing aswell ... as much as i like the idea, i probably have to admit that.

yours could work with low players. but as for infantry research, thats skills already. doesnt mean they need to stay, if you change the fundaments be radical. you cant have major changes only on one end anyway.