Change Gren Mines

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by ViroMan, Nov 19, 2015.

  1. ViroMan

    ViroMan Black Hole (*sniff*) Bully

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    Make them do shit tons of damage. So much dmg that one mine will always take out a light and do heavy damage to med. If you ran over something that you could have prevented its on you. Sure sure, realism sucks but, come on.. mines are currently practically toothless against tanks and thats lame.

    Maybe even allow them to be shot at(with AT weapon or grenades) to detonate them. Direct(ish) shots not splash.

    Pro:
    *This allows grens to place mines in more places other then spending them all(most) in the same spot to get one vehicle.

    Cons:
    Escort... cookies... cookies like a checkers board
     
  2. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    Shit man, i do think with everything getting armor buffs screwed mines over hard, (afvs laugh at stacks of 4 and you need a 8mine to take out a med, something that used to gib heavies) but single mines crippling heavies? What? Also mind that the stupid "diminishing returns" mine bug is partly at fault.
    I just realised how long have i not played that map. Im quite thankful people seem to have forgotten about it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  3. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Random thought, it might be cool if a couple armors got balanced against infantry, like instead of absorbant being generically ok against cannons or whatever(I may know how speed to damage works but it's still one of the silliest things) it has resistance against infantry weapons, as in rpgs, mines, stickies. People would want to get it because everyone's goto for armor, reflect and compo, have a weakness to infantry weapons.

    Or maybe this should just be a small extra? Abs does need a small buff of sorts, with the weight, cost, and hp of armors being rather closer together abs doesn't have that special anything going for it anymore.

    This might have been a fun idea to test out when spartacus was doing scripts, but I can already hear people complaining about nerfs to their favorite armors.

    BUT BACK ON TOPIC. I don't know. It doesn't take long to drop a mine, while defusing it requires you to not be shot and can't shoot at anything for the same time it takes to deploy a mine. Meaning it's much harder to defuse a mine then to lay one. I would say that's fine and makes sense for most other games, but friendlies can waltz right past a minefield here.

    Wait that's kinda off topic too I think. What I'm trying to say is A) it's really annoying that a 5 mine stack doesn't kill heavies and B) I, and several others, easily lose lights to mines, though afvs and apcs can take at least 1 which I kinda like. I mean hey, it's akin to taking out the tires or treads right? They have to stop and repair, or retreat to repair pad. I feel like there's something fun about trying to predict where tanks will go too, like it's just part of the experience.

    So no to more damage.
     
  4. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    Frankly defusing mines takes about couple of seconds as an engineer since you can just drive into them, drive back and even get points for that.
     
  5. ViroMan

    ViroMan Black Hole (*sniff*) Bully

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    ^ I do this ^
     
  6. Catface

    Catface Member

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    Uh. I'm opposed to this. Mines really aren't that weak when you think about it. They kill infantry in one hit, forcing them to wait 10 seconds and then walk back to wherever they are going. If a tank is hit you better be an engy or have a repair nearby, and even then you spend more time on repairs. If it happens during combat you are forced to retreat (Or the enemy might take advantage of it to destroy your vehicle easily). And often areas can be easily denied (like stairs for infantry and chokepoints for vehicles) as people are reluctant to defuse them, drive over them or sacrifice themselves (infantry) to clear them up.

    The strength of mines is not that they can kill tanks instantly. It is that they deny areas or force the enemy to waste time on repairs, retreats, redirects or respawns. You can drop a mine every two seconds or so. But those two seconds can force an enemy to waste much more time by an order of magnitude.

    Diminishing returns is actually a feature. Place the mines in a row so one detonates independently each time and you will find them a lot more effective in their role in a lot of cases.

    Absorbant doesn't have that much HP, neither does regen. I would call that a soft-vulnerability against infantry weapons (mines, stickies, rpgs & mortars).

    Heat is removed for now, but we don't completely want to remove it, instead it is being redone. Absorbent in this version is actually quite useful on AFVs and heavy tanks as it allows you to keep firing as long as you take damage.

    Well, usually it isn't necessary to defuse all the mines on a chokepoint in order to traverse it safely. If it is a stack you can simply drive over it (with a jeep, or an armoured vehicle and repair afterwards) or sacrifice yourself with a revive engy nearby.

    I don't see why 5 mines, which take 10 or so seconds to drop, should be able to destroy a 1300 res tank and force someone to respawn, build a new vehicle (assuming there is still res available) and then drive back. Especially if you aren't even in the area.

    Besides. If you're nearby at the time (either in a vehicle or as gren) you can take advantage of it to easily destroy the vehicle. Done it myself many times on Slaughtered, Homeland and Canyon.
     
  7. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    i dont get where the issue with mines is. they are immobile, they are rather easy to spot and it isnt exactly rocket science to avoid them?! OFC mines should fulfil their role and kill tanks.
    but i can see how this is the usual empires thing, tanks cost money so anything posing a threat to your beloved vehicle is completely imba and should be nerfed to oblivion and back.
    tanks aint there to give you semi-invulnerability, make up for a lack of skill and enable headless rushing.

    concerning mines against infantry - i understand how its problematic on some maps where you cant jump them - how about they dont trigger when crouched (or rather, not standing)?
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  8. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    But this thread is wholly about vehicles, noone argues about increasing anti infantry or says that they are ineffective at that.
    You are completely in the wrong, that is mines one advantage. Mines dont deny shit because usually you dont have multiple grens stacking the same place unless its slaughtered. Mines are also a complete suprise like 90% of the time, so the vehicles will drive into the area regardless. Wasting time is way overrated. In a tug of war situation the only way to get ahead is when you destroy a vehicle thus giving your tanks the numbers advantage and eating the resources. Damaging them does very little and its you who are feeding the enemy resources due to wages. You also get a grand total of zero points (not even squad coop) points for damaging vehicles.
    Yeah i need a quote on this one. I asked Candles about it, he claimed its a bug for one and said he couldnt find the reason for the effect second. Sounds nothing like a feature.
    Yeah no, this is terrible. For one say goodbye to any kills beside jeeps. For two your mines are now much more easily spoted. For three that would take a ridiculous amount of space and any misplace (remember they bounce) will result into chain detonation doing nothing.
    No, you cant really no, a full stack of mines is going to make the heavy fly off making the shot sometimes impossible. You also either fire first hoping you can guide the shot into the front not knowing when the tank will end up or you delay it and pray it cant escape and all that doesnt account for the fact its all operating under the assumptions that you can safely guide an rpg for a long time that late into the game and that a single shot will be all that it takes, which is usually hardly the case .
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  9. Spike

    Spike Long Live The King!

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    Viroman that would break the game. really killing lt's with one mine ?.

    i don't think you realize how wrong that would be, besides mines already do alot of damage to tanks and you can take out a LT with 2 or 3.

    Mines will pretty much be staying the same in the next version
     
  10. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Yeah I know that but I'm saying abs is still shit. Or rather that's a weakness that really isn't warranted.

    It's pretty hard to overheat on a heavy though. Afv yeah but considering the weapons being used regen, compo, reflect are all way more useful then abs.
     
  11. Catface

    Catface Member

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    That idea is circling around. Mostly for the Grenadier though. We'll see about it.

    Warfare is economics. Time is also a resource (in a way). If you have 1 mine pop a partybus, you cause the enemy team to waste a lot of time. On respawns, on gathering res for a new vehicle, on getting back to wherever they were going, etc.

    Same goes for an engy in a Jeep going around destroying refineries, buildings, turrets, etc. It destroys assets (res) and forces the enemy team to spend time on rebuilding their assets. (Also opportunity costs)

    Buffing mine damage would make it even easier to do this. Also. What other weapon can kill so easily in a few hits, without you having to be nearby? Also note that the RPG and mortar are getting buffed next version.

    Hmm, I'll ask around then. If not, then I consider it a sort of ascended feature. That said though. My perspective revolves around chokepoints in combination with Gren/Sticky ambushes and vehicle pushes.

    My whole problem with buffing mines further is that I disagree with the idea that people should be able to inflict so much damage and gain such easy kills without being forced to be near the action.

    It is hardly the case. Though again, the rpg and mortar are getting buffed. (The first by a lot, also in the form of research)

    Hmm, maybe I just add a lot of weapons to a tank. I also tend to use shotgun configurations on the NF heavy.
     
  12. ViroMan

    ViroMan Black Hole (*sniff*) Bully

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    RPG and motars are getting buffed? ok that is great. (I mean that) That still leaves mines primary roll as an AP not AT roll. It should not take a stack of mines to to do minor damage to a heavy. It just doesn't make any sense for an AT mine to do so little damage. If we keep it the same, we should at least change its description to Anti-Personal mine so it is understood that it is not meant for that roll but, it can still damage vehicles.

    As for mines easily taking out LTs... why not? LTs are meant to be lightly armored vehicles that trade armor and weapons for mobility. They are the next logical step up from APC in terms of firepower while still keeping most of the mobility. LT's being taken out easily is easy to counter by guess what? Being a gren with defusal. Generally your not going to need defusal anyway unless you know your going into fortified enemy base or through a choke point like S bend. If your any other class, while driving, your taking a KNOWN risk with trade offs.
     
  13. Neoony

    Neoony Member

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    I dont really see why increase the damage of the mines.
    They can already be pretty damn effective if used properly.
    I might see why increase it on late game...but very late game only. (maybe over research)

    I would prefer to see mines used as some form of passive damage, rather than the executor.
    Lay some mines and finish off with rpg+mortar.
    You are not supposed to stop a group of tanks solely with mines, but rather make them weaker. ( and distracted xD )
    Same goes for a single heavy.

    I however see why would there be a damage buff to mortar/rpg...but also only for very late game. Or maybe rather only to heavies and their armors, if thats possible. I dont think we need jeeps, apcs or etc getting any easier to kill at any point of the game with rpg/mortar or even mines honestly.

    Thats why I would probably keep mines as they are, but rather buff damage of rpg/mortar to heavies only. (or maybe to meds a tiny bit too)

    So you could rather think of mines as a couple of extra shots put onto the tank in your limited reload time frame of rpg/mortar, if that makes sense xD
    Mines should be used together with YOU.
    Not as some poisoned cookies giving you points, while you are on the other side of the map. :D

    By the way, I dont think Gren should equal Heavy, Gren taking down a heavy should be very hard and rather dependant on how the Gren can use all of his arsenal and movement, rather than mostly depend on the damage he deals.
    ...but...I know I have this thirst for skill aspects of this game xD

    I just think Gren is mostly fine. If there should be any changes, they should be slight and probably only at some points of the game.
     
  14. Tama

    Tama Developer Staff Member Web Developer

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    I completely agree with Neoony; mines are pretty good, although it would be nice to be able to research to beef them up. How about a 120 second research directly in one of the main branches that doubles the damage of mines?
     
  15. Catface

    Catface Member

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    At the moment, the RPG buff is implemented as follows:

    • There is a slight buff to its base damage.
    • Further damage buffs are unlocked by researching the master trees. Each offering around 5-10 extra damage (we are not settled on the exact amount yet)
     
  16. urethra franklin

    urethra franklin Member

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    Just remove mines
     
  17. Spike

    Spike Long Live The King!

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    why would they be removed ? there a useful weapon in the grenadier arsenal and surprisingly easy to counter via grenadier diffusal
     

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