Balance cv strength against ticket wins.

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by urethra franklin, Jun 26, 2014.

  1. urethra franklin

    urethra franklin Member

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    I constantly see people rushing the cv kill for an instant win and ruining games just to get their little gratification for a win. Why is killing the cv so easy compared to winning on tickets that I have never seen a ticket win on a commander map? Shouldn't they both be at least viable enough to consider?
     
  2. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    This is the kind of shit that might be fun in a mini game sort of way, but I'm not sure if I'd want to play every match like that.
     
  3. urethra franklin

    urethra franklin Member

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    I'm exactly the opposite I think. Whenever I haven't played empires for a while I think of it as a fun war of attrition and then get on and it's just people rushing to turret/wall/sticky a cv EVERY FUCKING ROUND
     
  4. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    I'm sorry. You win a match by killing the cv. That's a design decision. Shit balances around that. Doesn't mean it's the "best", just means it is.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  5. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    The CV is never going to get removed, stop asking and suggesting for it.

    Make an non shitty infantry map if you want genuine war of attrition.
     
  6. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    while i think tickets are stupid, its true that rounds end too fast nowerdays. there often barely is a progress in tech level, you maybe get better armor and engines so your apcs get to vulnerable spots easier, but it usually already is over by the time the winning team starts med research.

    balancing the cv against the ticket count (or anything else ensuring that enough time passed) sounds like not such bad of an idea. it certainly would shift the goal of the game, as to be able to kill the cv you have to first kill a bunch of enemies.
    but i see some issues with players - since you cannot easily win by lame rushing anymore, the tendency to stack might rise and the next problem is people containing the enemy in its last rax and spawncamp till a certain kill-threshold is reached.

    but i do think if youd make ml turrets being not just easy points for tanks or something you just ignore while rushing by in your jeep/apc, youd solve a good portion of the issue - except for upgraded mg turrets, defenses are too weak and in case of lvl3mg actually too tough in certain spots (but that could be just map issues aswell). the delay they are supposed to provide often is just neglectable. the only delay with a somewhat reliable timeframe is fully built walls or buildings that block a path of for both sides.
    also as soon as you fall behind in funds or research, getting back on your feet is close to impossible unless the enemy makes really bad mistakes - i dont see winning by ninja as getting back on your feet. as only tanks are supposed to counter tanks in 1on1, if you cant at least field a somewhat equal amount of equally good tanks its GG, independend for how long you can outrepair the enemy - that only matters for ninja victories.
    thats why radar also is a common target for rushes early to midgame, big hit in both, you cannot start new research and you lost 600res.

    so what happens? both teams rush a spot, either one fails, the winning team gains a money advantage giving them tank and research adavantage and on goes the slippery slope - in the majority of cases the team that didnt win first contact loses and for multiple reasons there usually is a clear winner, rather then a frontline establishing.
    but its not really just the games issue, but the tactics people employ, which then are the games fault though - IMO. but its a two edge sword, if you value defense too much you end up in stalemate after stalemate and its just ticket wins anymore.

    ofc theres a lot of you can do with an immense amount of organisation, but thats usually not the case - at least not for the vast majority of rounds.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  7. Minato

    Minato Member

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    Got to CV sudden death a couple days ago on a Cod match, was fun
    I went for Abso/Regen + HE + BioML heavies as BE
    Enemy comm (Creeper?) got turrets and dominated early game

    In the end I got wrecked by a single med because I underestimated the whole "You take one shot and you're dead, comm" thing

    CV SD is pretty stressful for the commander and whoever else may care.
     
  8. Señor_Awesome

    Señor_Awesome Member

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    I guess you weren't here for a couple patches ago where every round of crossroads went to tickets. Guess what happened? It went to sudden death and everybody tried to rush the enemy cv.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't work out the way you might hope.
     
  9. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    You got heavies on cod?

    Jesus, creeper must've been inept with his turrets. I will shred you every time you try that shit.

    Yesterday Lazybum got his cv shoved between a turret, a cliff by my cv. Throw up a couple lvl2 mgs (hadn't even finished lvl3s, lol) and it's gg.

    I don't fuck around on cod.
     
  10. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    turrets are the worst balanced element in empires. a cluster of mls at best is a level up or two, a single maintained mg can hold off a complete front for minutes. not suggesting this, but if you would have to research them seperately, you would not research mls at all ;)

    i mean whats so bad about turrets that force a vehicle to stop and attack before they can pass? ofc the stopped vehicle should be able to win each and every time. in general you need to stop for mgs aswell and you also win every encounter when you do. im not saying you in no case should be able to drive by a lvl1ml turret in a heavy tank or that if you ignore a lvl1ml in an apc you should die instantly - but you should take enough damage so it makes ignoring it a decision you have to make rather then the default one. i mean cmon i dont really care if im standing in a couple of lvl1s range driving a heavy and as apc driving pass 5-6 turrets isnt that much of an issue if you are fast enough to lose some missiles and distribute the remaining damage.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  11. Metruption

    Metruption Member

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    Getting level 3s is a 180 second research, I'd rather have absorbant 30 seconds sooner and then quickly grab UGL. Level 2 turrets are fine when properly repaired/placed
     
  12. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    Abs/reactive, turbine, ugl is definitely on my mental list for post-turret research, but apcs need room to breathe to be effective. In the cramped cod valley, it's hard to use vehicles effectively, let alone speedy apcs. Grens are free and require no research.
     
  13. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    Mls aren't underpowered. Mgs are just overpowered.
     
  14. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    mls are severely underpowered considering the various ways to mitigate their damage done. unless you are forced to drive trough a corridor of them you can just ignore them - protip for free.
    if its lvl3mls unless its decided due to their mg counterparts already, they face tanks that remove whole clusters of them faster then you can build one, this also is close enough to ignoring them for me.
    as said, you actually research lvl3mgs, the mls are a welcome bonus but not deciding. do you really think you could attack buildings with lvl3mls if there wasnt mgs?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  15. Minato

    Minato Member

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    I hate turrets and will never research or place them because anyone with half a brain can take them down. Waste of research time and res.
    If you want turrets, don't vote me into the CV.

    Heavies work on Cod if you've got people who can use them and know how to save up wages for them. One heavy per side makes for a nigh-inpenetrable steel wall because no one's "dumb enough to research heavies on cod".

    Until CV SD when everyone just rushes in anyway.
     
  16. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    then you give up on the map and lose because even if you still have tickets, you have no money for heavies - the main intention of turrets is area denial and there is not much area to deny to start with so the more they get the more of a problem you have ^^
    full defense is no option in empires anyway since you cannot outrepair an equal amount of attackers, and you actually dont even need that many attackers to remove a base.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  17. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    Heavies take too long. By the time you have your heavies, I already have lvl3s on both sides of the map and I own every ref except the one in your main.

    You can't casually take pot shots at my turrets because my team is actually fighting slightly past the turrets and the farm is slowly creeping behind them as their approach that last precious ref.

    But even if you do take down a few turrets, I now have enough cash for 5-6 meds, which are MUCH cheaper than heavies despite packing nearly the same lethality. BioML hurts the same regardless what kind of tank fired it.

    And I have the open space to fit repair pads on both ends of your main. You'll be lucky if you can fit a single pad, let alone keep it up.

    gg
     
  18. 101010

    101010 Member

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    SD on cod is very common. You start with limited tickets.
    More rounds went to SD in the past before due to stronger CV armor and better coms / players. But that also lead to 30 minute CV chases.

    I would much rather have a bad round end fast like they do now. Instead of a bad round dragging on for a hour with 30 minutes of just the commander alive driving around.
     
  19. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    Coms can't really run away in cod...

    [​IMG]
     
  20. 101010

    101010 Member

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    Yeah I should have split that up. I was talking about com chases on normal maps
     

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