Just reduce escorts tickets. Its not hard. Reduce it by half for nf and reduce it by what ever for BE so its kind of th same.
lol trickster hasnt played escort enough BE always gets to the last flag. always. and that doesnt mean they win or lose. always 50 minute games always now i could fix that... but it would require a magical vmf and on why games are short reasons: research time is too short end game weapons dont get researched cause they suck. HE ends up being end game weapon so games end quicker so many resources. tons of heavies get pumped out quick since i can list reasons why game sucks. can i be lead gameplay dev?
fixing the first flag and letting nf crouch cap it disabling heavies removing shit weapons to make it new player friendly reducing tickets fixing the 9mine over gate exploit adding tickets each cap making second to last flag less confusing for players maybe re-adding arty (its been long enough) more once i actually look at the map
Beerdude wrote up a really cool post about empires being a "solved" game. Empires has a lot of mechanics to end games abruptly. If one team isn't up to snuff, they will crumble when you use one of those mechanics on them. Most of the regular population has mastered those techniques. If both teams have adequate leadership, then you'll see the map last for at least a half hour. But if that's not the case, then one team will probably dominate.
As for Escort again, it just comes back to my previous point in the first post. BE have too many starting resources, which is clouding any real judgement of the map as far as balance goes. They can pump out stupid amounts of tanks and use that momentum to just brute-force their way through all the flags. But there's a good chance that they run out of steam by the end and it stalemates. If we lowered the amount of starting resources, we may find it plays a lot smoother, or that BE don't have enough income to build enough tanks to push through at all. In which case, we balance from there by tweaking the resource income. But having the amount of starting resources we have at the moment makes it impossible to judge that kind of thing. I'm too lazy to do it but it'd be nice if a moderator can split your post and then make a new thread about why games are too short. I think you're in the ball-park but I have a theory based off that to some extent. I don't think research time is really too short. It was just as short 5-6 years ago and the games weren't that short then. Nor do I think it 's resources or endgame weapons specifically, because you don't need an endgame weapon to end the game, nor have you ever. Resources are closer but actually, it could be as simple as vehicle count. Up until a few years ago, servers literally couldn't support more than 10-12 vehicles. We had up to 15 in the 2.12 era but with far worse handling, vehicles died a lot easier (no handbrake etc). I'd be interested to see if artificially limiting vehicles back down to 10 made a difference. I mean, there's a good chance it won't, but I still think it would be worth experimenting with. Personally, I actually preferred it with less vehicles. People shared vehicles more as far as seats went, and it meant your vehicle was a lot more valuable because you knew losing it would mean sitting in the VF for like 5 minutes. Sadly, that was another problem - 5-10 people constantly sat in the VF watching the vehicle counter to try and get their vehicle out first. So it's really a case of tradeoffs.
Yeah pretty much, though I never really felt like there were endgame weapons. Sure nukes and at some point rails, but most games those were both unneeded. I think why escort feels like a real drag is because there can be points where teams are fighting at one flag for like 10-20 minutes. When you think how normal empire games go that is a really long time to be stuck in one spot. It isn't exactly a case of the whole round being long, it's the really long bits inbetween. Considering the tools and how the map is laid out there isn't much leeway in tactics either, so it can feel really stale if you played escort a few times. Trickster, I don't think your quite right about the vehicle limit, maybe in a full pop game but when there is 20 people a team there tends to be only 5-6 tanks at a time. If you include apcs then yeah you'd hit the limit of 10 but for most pub games I'm not entirely convinced that would change anything. Ikalx pointed it out at one point, it is tied to research. Specifically when you made it free. There isn't periods of "this is all you get" tech, so endgame heavies or really nice meds come anywhere between 15-30 minutes, then game ends like 10 minutes after. So yes times are the same, but when research was being done isn't the same.
beerdude is right in that its a solved game. in that once you have HE heavies you start pushing. maybe if getting rails served a purpose games would last longer cause it would be put off by 8 minutes but of course now all you have to do is research compact engine and double/triple ml since it gives you all you need for nf meds and heavies the resources for BE are also a problem. its hard to find the right values though. however, you have to know that fighting heavies as grenadier is nigh impossible with how strong it is now. its not fun at all how many times must a topic be split off? tanks died much faster in 2.12 due to nuke/rail power. less tanks on the field means less to kill the com (which goes into your point about tank limit) sudden death used to happen alot for this reason. now it never happens (in fact we just realized that sudden death is broken. who knows since when) with the tank limit being what it is we can use basic psychology to make people not push. by making them think the "game-ender" is coming soon (like how in 2.12 it was just research rail heavies THEN rush) and i have no idea what points ddd is talking aboout
*Be cant open the side gate until the cap the 3rd flag *Be cant cap with a single person *Nf need 3 or 2 guys to recap Are you serious? Spawn camping is already ridiculous with grenades.
I don't think "ninja" tactics and whatnot are really that widely used, but the point you make regarding leadership is fairly strong. There aren't many people who still lead teams, and that includes commanders who decide not to lead. If one team has leadership and one doesn't, then yeah, the games tend to end fairly quickly. Sadly that's not something we can really address from our end, though I think the idea of creating some new commanders via default opt-in (as stated in the other thread) could maybe help create some new leaders. I want to point out that I'm not saying that Escort is perfect. It has some fairly serious flaws, some of which you address there. But I have 3 main issues which some of your ideas contradict: 1) The idea that 50 minutes is too long of a game. I think that's absurd. If anything, we should be aiming for a 45 minute average game, so the idea that Escort takes too long is ridiculous. But yes, it can take too long in one specific area of the map, so that could be addressed, excepting the last flag for obvious reasons. 2) The idea that the map is too hard for NF. It's really not, any modicum of teamwork on NF can totally break down BE's push. Simple 9-mine traps and a few scouts with stuns will halt BE almost instantly. If these tactics were more wide-spread I honestly feel that people would be saying BE have it too hard. The fact is though, these tactics aren't widespread. I mean, it could honestly be as simple as putting up advice-boards within the spawn for people to read, much like we have on the Tutorial map. It's not the ideal solution but I can guarantee you that those tactics would come up a lot more. Or even put it in the map briefing. Not many people read it but with the population as low as it is, it only needs a few people to be seen doing it and that's already progress. 3) The idea that Heavies are too powerful. This leads on from my point above. Heavies take longer to kill and kill infantry easier. Or to look at it from the other side, Mediums are quicker to kill and can't kill infantry as easily with only single HE. This means that the only other option with regard to Mediums is to have high numbers of them. Which means that you have loads of tanks down a narrow corridor all ramming into eachother, it's stupid as fuck. It's better to have a situation which encourages coordination by having fewer stronger tanks, and that coordination point applies to both teams. NF have to work together to take down the tanks, BE have to work together to defend the tanks they have, because losing one is painful to their economy. These were the points I had before you posted your ideas. The idea of re-adding artillery is retarded. Artillery was fucking horrible on this map and it has no place on Escort. NF have virtually no way to contest them so it's just airborne bullshit they can't counter. if that's the kind of thing you want then you shouldn't be going anywhere near the map. The other points regarding fixing exploits, map discrepancies and re-implementing ticket additions on flag caps I support though. Honestly, I've already written too much, but people need to understand one thing about Escort. We have been through multiple iterations of the map, with multiple balance changes to the game as a whole, and generally speaking, the balance of winrate on the map has shifted between the 2 sides fairly frequently. There have been versions where NF would win every round, as well as versions where BE would win every round. It is very difficult to get the map into that balanced place, but more than anything, it does not require a lot of change to vastly shift it from one side to the other. If there's any map that benefits from small, tiny tweaks, it's Escort. Keep that in mind. Oh, and as an aside, stop acting like the requirement of teamwork is something dirty. If a team doesn't work together, they deserve to lose. Coordination should be rewarded. It's more important on Escort than most maps, but it goes for the game as whole. Any situation in which teamwork can be rewarded should be encouraged, not avoided.
that sounds nice. but i like the idea of a scout going all the way behind the lines to open the gate sounds not very friendly. and very rage inducing for BE 3 people would be good. always seem to be missing 1 person AND WHY NOT ARTY. TRICKSTER WANTS HIS 90% WIN RATE NOW DOESNT HE also we have no idea how arty works now with all the new changes. it cant be as bad as heavy rushes 50 minute games ARE long. especially on escort. if its not long then why do all these commanderless maps have a strict 45 minute limit EXCEPT escort? with heavies it is impossible for nf to defend unless your stacked against all new players. sry you havent played new versions so you cant say you can kill heavies OH COME ON. WE HAVE NEVER EVEN PLAYED AN ESCORT WITH ARTY. we are all just basing it on something mootant did over 7 years ago. lets see how it does now. also see above. cant have dem 90% win rates without arty OK IM REALLY TIRED BUT I DONT THINK I EVER SAID ANYTHING BAD ABOUT TEAMWORK. PLEASE DIRECT ME if anything disabling arty is harming teamwork by just relegating everyone to a heavy or spawning in a apc. WHERES THE DIVERSITY IN TEAMWORK WITH SO MUCH UNIFORMITY theres weapon values you can change to fix that. and when did i say i like strong armor?
Please add arty to escort, I want to see the crying threads. Oh and add nukes while we're at it. I mean it's teamwork to use different weapons.
finally someone gets me and its not like i added nukes to the new glycen for no reason. its teamwork-oriented.
I really wasn't even talking about the traditional "ninja" tactics that result in CVs dying within 20s. It's simple things like getting turrets and just creeping your lines forward. A lot of teams just can't deal with that. Or driving an APC into enemy main base. It sounds simple, but it works more often than not. Or just pooling a lot of tanks at once and sending them all to the same place. It doesn't take a lot to really roll over a team in 0 min.
Hows needing like 2 guys to cap a flag for be rage inducing for be? Its only there so that a random passer by cant just instantly deny the flag, since it takes like only 2 seconds to do so. Also, no, fuck arty. What do you even think its going to do? You're going to have people rushing into a position to spawn camp, thats the only thing arty has been "usefull" for on escort. Its not going to do anything else, the cannons have too much range and no control to try to "support infatry". Besides, bes got the shitty ugl for that. For nf to win, they need teeth clenched teamwork. Even a couple of people that will feed away tickets can screw over the win in the end. On the other side, the current be meta's "teamwork" consist in putting an apc on spawncamping duty while everyone midlessly dogpiles to the flag. The only difference is the last flag when it might get upgraded to a hide rush or two.
capping the two player middle flag on glycen made me mad cause noone was around. there i said it. also doesnt 2 players make it impossible for brenodi to cap if its 1v1 or something? it kinda sucks if its a guaranteed loss... also 2 players to cap? seems too teamworky. and you know i hate teamworky it'll least be hilarious for a week i loved how people jumped on the thing i labeled a "maybe" and 30% meant as a joke
You were seriously just joking around all this time? Dick. Just thinking about arty on escort makes my blood boil even though its not been a thing for like 6,5 years.
