i'd reply that empires isn't just an FPS, you need people in a squad that can help eachother in different situations than just a variety of anti infantry guns working as a squad, there's no real need for two anti infantry units, but there certainly is need for an anti tank weapon that new players can use, or they get rolled over. it would be good to have a demolition unit you can bring with your squad to help take out a base quicker than just another engineer. there is so much else than just infantry deathmatch that the grenadier could fulfill. i would advocate leaving the current mortar in, but as one option. because it's fun to use, and that's important.
Imo every class needs another class that is an active counter to it. With active I mean that the player does it and not a device like a turret. Cause without grens the rifleman had no infantry to fear expect other riflemans and that could easily decide the early game for the team with the better cs whores. Better argument mr sandbag?
I'm sorry I don't quite understand your argument. Are you saying that the rifleman, the dedicated anti-infantry unit needs a counter, and that that counter is best performed by the anti-tank class?
And rifleman can kill late game tanks a lot better then a gren. This mod isn't like every other game. And its cool that way. Also to reply to what cyber said a few pages back. Hashtwas can hit you from behind a wall in the head with a rifleman grenade 100 feet away. Lets not balance this game around him.
Grens are more efficient vs tanks even then riflemen late game. 2-3 grens can lay 16-24 mines and fire of 3 rpg at one tank. 2-3 riflemen needs to run up to the tanks and hope that it don't reverse. Also why are saying that that grens can't kill if we fixed the mortar? He still got the 9mm! It is an excellent defence weapon which can kill up to medium range. So i really don't get what you are saying about that gren will lack anti inf power. But the point being that you can replace other classes with grens and that makes the other classes weaker and redundant. He could help by kill the enemy riflemen trying to kill our gren shooting at the enemy tank, it is called teamwork. Or he could kill the enemy engineer that tries to repair the tank. Seriously how did you not get that? The point is that a force of only grens comparative to a force of only riflemen can deal with more threats easier. That is the problem. Have you totally forgotten about the 9mm? OR the machinpistol or the shotty? But then we should balance the research armour? Like we already have suggested? Why do you assume that we can't change things so it works? And why do you feel that infnatry should be able to kill 1000 rez heavy tank without teamwork? That is the real question here. I don't support that change. That's like having the riflemen choose between an engineer tool or an assault weapon. Grens are more efficient vs tanks even then riflemen late game. 2-3 grens can lay 16-24 mines and fire of 3 rpg at one tank. 2-3 riflemen needs to run up to the tanks and hope that it don't reverse. But they are not. It is only that you refuse to see how the classes wtill can advance and help each other.
Please state how many times you're able to make 3 grens drop 24 mines and make a heavy without defusal drive over it before he has shoot you to death.
Ok so now you are saying the gren IS effective agianst tanks. When others are saying its needs to be fixed to be better vs tanks and less against inf. I think its fine as is and fun. I didn't say the grens can't kill if you "fix" the mortar. I said it will be less fun. Somthing Krenzo has always pushed for. You guys are not looking at the bigger picture. Your looking at small parts of the game and comparing it to other games you have played. The fact of the matter is you want to change something that kills you while hiding the truth behind the word imbalanced. Every point has been made your just repeating yourself.
48. I got 4 friends with mics. Please state how many times heavys actually do got defusal on avreage severs.
I don't even know where i start with this one. Okay i try this, i have alwaysed said that grens are effective against tanks, i dare you to find where i have said that they are bad vs tanks. And i have also said that they need to be improved vs tanks and nerf vs infantry. Less fun? A class that can kill everything is imbalanced. That's a fact. We are looking at the amount of teamwork required to attack and win. If you define that as a small part of the game i won't even try to discuss with you. You are saying that currently ingame the only class capable of fighting the riflemen is grens? So if we like removed grens completly riflemen would be overpowerd?
This sums up your whole argument. hmm.. lets see a class that can kill everything? rifleman, grens, engineers? How many of those classes actually do instead of can. none You don't know how fun the mowtar is and you don't realize that its one of the more fun and unique things about empires so of course you won't mind seeing it become a miniature free arty tank. Quit spinning shit like saying fixed instead of changed. You need to be a lawyer not a game dev.
Unique? It is a grenade launcher, exactly like rifle grenades. No difference at all. No riflemen can't kill everything, they need to chose between so explosives or stickyes, thus your whole argument is flawed. Exactly how does an engineer attack tanks? Also their nade spam, is imba. Yes i have played with the mortar, i can appreciate the skill it takes to kill whit it and thus fun. But right now it server no purpose, gameplay wise that weapon for an anti tank class is not thought through. The mortar is a weapon which was not thought trough. If we added deploy time and increased splash with a small damage bonus it would actually server a purpose, and be unique. Your version of unique is that it got a separate skin, because it plays exactly like a grenade launcher and for fills the exact same roll as an assault rifle, kill infantry directly at range, but also is so grollsy imbalanced that it can kill buildings and tanks. But if we changed it we would remove the grens direct anti inf power and enable him to kill turrets better at range and too root out infantry nests. Thus giving the weapons a true UNIQUE roll. Sure i use the word change if that make you happier.
Not everyone are using mics and this is still a public game, not clan match only, remember? Seriously, you say I can't understand you, yet you don't even bother understanding what I'm saying, and you repeat everything that I already know. Am I the only one, not understanding why Sirex can't understand other points of views? I understand your points well, but well.. I don't understand the way you put them. And you manage to misunderstand almost everything, that you don't like as a idea. I don't have time to write everything again just that you'd misunderstand them again. I've said what I need to say, if you don't understand or don't want to understand, then so be it. Nothing personal, but still... You're basicly saying, that grenadiers should be more effective against vehicles and less effective against infantry. And then you say that, grenadiers shouldn't be able to kill tanks without teamwork... What do you really think or do you just argument for the sake of argumenting? I've lost track here. I really don't know what you really think about this matter, because you say a lot of things. I don't base my arguments on suggestions, I base them on the current version of the mod, and how it works right now. I can see, you have bigger plans, but that's a question of time, if something is changed, something else has to be changed, too. It's nothing new, but you seem to know already in your head what Empires is going to be as a final build. I don't have any clues about it what-so-ever. I'll leave this thread alone, because I'm highly misundestood with everything I say. I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. kthxbye
Right now it is a grenade launcher. I seriously fail to see the uniqueness. If people that are interested in winning can't bother to buy a mic and yell lay mines at the place that needs it and call for more grenadiers then he deserv to lose. Yes i understand you, but i think you are so blatantly wrong that i decided to rebuff you at every point you made, with arguments. I am sorry if it seemed like i did not understand you. But i am so interested at argumentation the points you made that i can't be bothered with feelings. What i hate is when people does this, instead of discussing the arguments and the topic they derail. I don't misunderstands them, i don't like them I have met you at every point with what i feel how it should be, and you have stated how you feel it should be. I assure you that i have not misunderstood what you siad, i only think that it is wrong. That is separate things, i in simple terms said that the rpg should be better and to change mortar so his direct anti-inf power gets worse. BUT then people said in late game tanks gets better, then i said he ofcourse needs teamwork to kill expensive tanks, otherwise it would not be balanced. I base all my arguments on gameplay and teamwork. Yes i feel that if we change something that must follow with other changes so it works, otherwise the concept will be half done and broken.
There are two seperate issues here; the first is that grens need to be better against tanks and worse against infantry, the second is that one grenadier should not be able to destroy a 2000 res tank on his own without a balancing amount of resources being spent. For tanks; the engineer turret has a considerable 'deploy time', the rifleman grenade only works at close range while the grenadiers mortar/rpg work instantly and at long range. For infantry; the engineer has his smg which is supposed to be close range and his pistol1 for longer range, the rifleman has his rifles as he is the main anti infantry class and the grenadier has his mortar which works at several ranges, is indirect fire with no randomness as well as his choice of pistol2/pistol1. The grenadier is the only one who has an anti tank weapon with no practical strings attached, yet has a powerful pistol and the mortar is an effective anti-infantry weapon. How does this have any relevance to the balance discussion at all?
Everyone that thinks it is good to give infantry a mini artillery at game start doesnt really understand what that would do to the game. EDIT: ITs very easy to whore tank kills with stickys on every map (exept duststorm)
Well getting killed by the mortar is not fun, therefore nerf it into oblivion. I mean you did it to the scout rifle, why not the mortar?
It's not a grenade launcher. It's similar but has more ammo/range and doesn't have a rifle to also use. It's like shooting an explosive basket ball or playing golf with nades. Its fucking fun! You say he needs to be better but shouldn't be able to destroy a 2000 res tank any more? so you mean he should be buffed agianst tanks but also nerfed against tanks..... It's already setup so its hard to kill armored tanks alone. If you lose a 2000 res tank to one gren you just suck. It's not a balance issue Yeah that makes him the anti tank class. The riflemans rifles work instantly and at long range at killing people. The mowtar is takes precise aim and time to reload and crouch. And not only that but anyone can see the shell and trail of smoking coming thru the air and dodge it. The engineer is the only person who can destroy buildings with ease. The point was those three classes CAN kill anything but each is better at only one. The rifleman has the pistol too. Would making the gren not have the second pistol balanced to you? Is was a reply to him asking me how its less fun. Your just out of the loop
